I love you, Hun.

http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects/khm/showcases?language=en

Sorry, forgot link.

From Persepolis to the Punjab, it is said Red Huns were the Kidarites, but also Alchon and Nezak Huns. They were different cultures than the White Huns, who became the Hepthalites, as well as the Black Huns, of which we know Attila.

 

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wha, huh? => an Alcoholic's coin? .... hey, that's mine!!!

 

AN, thanks for the reference to the article on "Coinage of the Nezak."

 

Nice!

 

just playing around.

 

there are no hard evidences that linked black huns (attila people) and Hono/Huna together, they just shared some similarities in traditions.
if we were to regard that as evidence then xionite = xiongnu, they shared more than just traditions, a lot of artifacts from the 2 origins were practically the same.

It's very unscientific.

 

It will be quite difficult to un-science this.

Kobadien, Northern Tokharistan,
Xionite Huns
AR Drachm 30 mm x 2.87 grams
Struck AD 680-720
Obverse: Crowned Bust of Peroz flanked by Tamghas- Countermark, Forepart horse, Circular symbol, Human head wearing pom pom hat-Cursive Bactrian Greek- ALChOON
Reverse: Zoroastrian Fire Altar flanked by two attendents. Countermark Reclining Camel with Elephant head on the hind portion, Human head wearing Satrapal Cap.
ref# cf.Gobl 72/73
Note: Rare, Silk Road Coin.

 

It's just an attribution, doesn't prove anything.
they have shared traditions, having existed around the same periods and all, but one cannot "link" them together because they were different people. The impact of hunnic migration meant there had bean many claims of lineage, but were inclusion of dispersed population from hunnic tribes at the very best. Fact of matter is, there is no statehood to speak about, let alone claims of origins...

Huns were nomadic people, who spoke Hunnic, which isn't similar to Indo-European languages in any extend It's linked to Turkic and Mongolian, through the possible Xiongnu-Xionite connection which is far from being proven itself.

Hephthalite/"white huns" used various languages, you can look that up and see for yourself whether hunnic was one of them....

 

to continue what I was saying before lunch...
This type of coinage (striking coins out of precious metal) was a greek tradition, and alexander the great only went to india, that's not where Huns originated or remotely close to their route of migration.
One could argue there could had been hunnic imitation of roman coinage, but even those had existed, they wouldn't be related to greco-bactrian styles.

European historians had been purposely mixing the huns with these southern kingdoms for centuries for whatever reasons. These are not all related, and really shouldn't all be called "huns".
Attila's huns = black huns = people that crossed the volga and attacked rome

Kidaritae/chronitae = Altaic = Iranian Bactrians
they are related to
Hepthaltites = Hua = Altaic without the Oghur Turkic section.

 

In classification there are always Lumpers and Splitters. You obviously are a splitter.
In Indian contemporary written sources in Sanskrit the term "Huna" is used as well. For a variety of central-asian tribes at the north-western border. Sorry, but i don't recognize your authority to force people to reserve the "Hun" term for Atilla's entourage. (That's not to say people should not try to be clear about what they are talking. But labeling should be an aid, not a constraint we enforce on historic reality, i believe)

 

no one is assuming "authority" or trying to force opinion upon others :O
It's just funny seeing graphical remarks related to the black huns being used in response to talks about the white huns.

 

Brass,
I am glad you brought this up. Give me sometime and I will give you the best answer I can. Hang tight.

 

My position, based upon the BM, UNESCO, ancient Chinese writings and some Ph.D papers, (not bragging just letting you know my sources of material), was there were three distinct types of huns, Black, White, and Red. All three were forced out of their homelands by the Xiongnu, (recognized to be the Mongols). They themselves displaced the Yueh Chi, who displaced the Saka or Skythians. The Black huns migrated north and moved north of the Caspian and Black Seas, eventually interacting with Rome. The Red Huns were the first to enter Central Asia. This band was called the Kidarites. Later examples of Red Huns were called Alchon and Nezak. The Chionites, (later called Hepthalites after most likely a leader or family called Heptal), were the White Huns. They never migrated across the Hindu Kush but fought some battles there. Writers in modern Pakistan noticed the differences, and described the two different types of huns with different names.

Everything you said about the Chionites/Hepthalites is true. They spoke many languages and were probably a disparate band of people held together by a central core. Such amalgams is not so unusual in areas and times of trouble.

I would be glad to discuss further, especially when I am home and can actually pull out my books. This is just from memory. Central Asia, especially northern Central Asia, is my favorite history to talk about.

 

As an addition, the ones that did venture into India, supported by ample historic evidence, were:
- The Kidarite, who controlled parts of the Punjab and Kashmir. They came to a standstill after a confrontation with Gupta emperor Samudragupta.
- The Alkhan, at the top of their power under emperor Toramana and Mihirakula. Their expansion reached south upto Malwa. They were part of the reason of the downfall of the Gupta empire after emperor Skandagupta.

 

med: are you suggesting heptal might have been the first or among the first hephthalite kings? I am also very interested in central asia. do you know of any sources that discuss who their rulers were prior to sassanid contact?

thank-you

 

Tom Mallon used to have on his website a PhD dissertation from a Berlin University. It was a review of all research on Hepthalites, especially Russian. In there they talk about the origin of the name, because clearly that group of people were Chionites first, but later universally were called Hepthalites. Some research thought Heptal might have been a certain leader, other thought it might by the name of the family that came to prominence amongst the Chionites, like the YuehChi later became known as the Kushans after the name of the most prominent clan.

I have never read much of anything about the name of leadership of the Chionites/Hepthalites. I doubt much is known. Unfortunately, the Hepthalites either used Sassanian coins or imitated them. They never struck coins in the name of their rulers.

 

Hello:

I was able to download a copy of that dissertation recently