READ THIS! The Next Generation Of Chinese Counterfeits Have Arrived

So, just like you said, all that the poor, chinese peasant has to do is a multi-million dollar investment and he will be off to the races and in the black in no time.

I'm not putting my tinfoil hat on over this incoming counterfeit wave just yet. Ain't no straw hut village man running those machines.

 

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The surface of the coin looks funny. Tiny specs of metallic on the surface.

 

While not about Mr. Maxfli's post in particular, I've never understood the need some seem to have, when they decide to ignore someone, to announce it to the entire forum. Perhaps there is one, but it doesn't seem to serve any worthwhile or real purpose other than maybe, in some situations, an attempt to give one last jab that surely misses its mark.

 

Had your comment been about Mr. Maxfli's post in particular, you would have been wrong. Had Mr. Maxfli desired a "jab" he would have, in all likelihood, named the party who was ignored. Mr. Maxfli was merely sharing his excitement in learning that the ignore function on CT is considerably more thorough than the ignore function on other forums on which Mr. Maxfli participates, and he was sharing his discovery with other forum members, in the belief that it might be of interest to some of them.

 

This forum is getting real formal. I like it. Mr. Bkozak33 likes the ignore function as well.

 

Which is why I attempted to clarify that my post was not about you, and was really nothing more than a simple observation brought about by your post. No offense was intended.

 

No offense taken. Just having some fun.

 

Mr. Maxfli acknowledges endorsement of the ignore function by Mr. Bkozak33.

 

It's not Chinese "straw hut village" people doing this. It is people already involved in the technology sector, who have the equipment, software, knowledge and investment capital at their disposal - and not solely in China.

 

One seller on Alibaba said send him a pic he can make anything in a week

 

I guess this post should be titled SEE THIS because there's nothing yet written for me to read that verifies it's a forgery. Assuming it is a forgery, I'm not really surprised. I love coins like all of you, but these are just coins that we love. These are just metal disks struck with an impression. With the level of technology in this world, coin forgeries seem inevitable. This is just a more significant pitfall of our hobby. Scary, but I'd argue inevitable.

 

if one person/persons can make something so can someone else

 

Doug, Thank you very much for locating the link which I was certain had been posted in the past. It originally piqued my interest to investigate the quality of these replicas after acquiring literature from several competent firms producing these products in China.

My interest in the subject was only academic, as I had previously traveled the world studying technology after being hired by the owner of a custom automated production equipment firm. The owner had given me power of attorney to study, select appropriate employees/equipment, to develop/build/install equipment which would give them world-wide "market share" for automated production equipment within 3 years.

The previously assigned employment goal had been accomplished, and the firms greatest international competitor purchased the privately owned firm. I had served my purpose, and moved on.

I was now an Engineering Design Specialist managing a new internal custom design/build organization which I convinced a prominent 80,000+ employee Fortune 500 firm of a need.

One of my ongoing lab customers was a Chinese scientist who had brought me patent documents, asking if I could reverse engineer, improve, and build prototypes for new technology. Goal accomplished!

Our relationship was so rewarding for him, that he anonymously joined with other "customers" to nominate me for the "Designer Of The Year" award selected from nominations by internal companies who developed new technology with various internal engineering groups assistance. I won the award!

I believed that if I privately educated this scientist who regularly returned to his homeland, and supplied him with TPG certified Key/Semi-Key coin specimens, he could locate the best facilities to acquire quality copies, having authentic material, toleranced dimensions/weights. Goal accomplished!

The replicas I eventually received for my collection of self-encapsulated/sealed marked copy on encapsulation, I believe are virtually undetectable by "authorities", or so it has appeared.

JMHO

 

So if I'm reading this right you educated this scientist on the correct tolerancing and dimensions of slabbed key date coins so that he could transfer the design to China? Even if the ones you received were marked "copy", what is stopping them from making more without the copy mark? Now that they have the machine programs and tooling they can be off to the races.

It's one thing to argue about whether to provide information on this forum that might help the counterfeiters, but I definitely wouldn't want to help the Chinese reverse engineer any coins.

 

Sure you did

 

There is a cycle that repeats its self about every 20 years in numismatics. Old news turns in to new news. It seems we forget things pretty easy when we don't write them down. Oh and how does a coin that has 40% silver weight the same as one with 90%?

 

The dimensions, tolerances, weights, were provided from readily available Numismatic publications. The certified coins were supplied only to provide a visual reference for a specific date/type coin.

The acquired coins were examined to determine accurate design, dimensions and weight. The coins are subsequently placed in airtite type transparent holders, which were hermetically sealed. The sealed containers were then engraved COPY, with the coin intact as struck from the press operation.

The Chinese operators surely don't need guidance for replication activities, and its believed the dimensions are acquired automatically by a 3D copy pantograph machine, or other surface profiling devices. Investment casting is also a simple inexpensive process for replicating base metal plated "copies".

Before asking my associate to investigate/acquire coins while in the country, I had already investigated some firms and acquired analytical samples which generally had supplied data for best acquisition source.
Only a composition testing kit, mechanical or optical comparator, and beam balance were generally needed for on-site quality assurance.

JMHO

 

I took the coin to my refiner and asked them to x-ray it for me. I also handed them my phone and asked that they take a picture of the result for me.

 

So, if it was a refiner doing this, I assume they trust their machine not to be thrown off by the composition of a surface layer? (In other words, if a "coin" had 2g of .999 sliver clad around a 3g copper core, the machine would report 40% silver, not 99.9% silver or something intermediate?)

I'm just more than a bit spooked by the "unusual ring" observation. Maybe .5% aluminum in the alloy makes a big difference, but it seems odd. At this point, if I had multiple examples of the fake, I'd be very tempted to grind off one face and see what's revealed.

Of course, if they do have a way to produce 40% silver coins that fool refiners and their X-ray scanners, this would open new avenues for fraud. I'd expect, though, that the refiners would catch on pretty quickly when their X-ray-scanned input assays at 40%.

Yet another edited-in afterthought: the "thrown off by surface composition" idea would be easy to check. Hand them a 40% Kennedy or Ike, and see whether it scans as 40% silver (the bulk composition), 80% silver (the surface composition), or something intermediate (indicating that the machine weights surface composition more than interior composition).