Beware of rainbow toning

"The pro-toning crowd then proved that rainbow toned coins are not common by showing that the percentage of rainbow toned coins to total is <1%."

The 2014 cent can be shown that it's precentage less than <1%. Is the 2014 cent common ?

 

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Toned coins are common, very very common. Rainbow toned coins and/or attractively toned coins are less common, but still relatively common in my mind. Aquiring an attractively toned or Rainbow toned coin at a reasonable price......... now that is uncommon.

 

Because I had gardening to attend to before the downpour

 

I'd just like to know if those pages were typical or had a bumper crop of toning on just those pages. I trust you no need to post more pages.

 

You are also agreeing with me Vic.

It's a matter of perspective.

Can we agree that 'rainbow' toned coins typically happen in the upper grade spectrum as a line in the sand say only AU-55 and better? (we know attractively toned coins exist below this but MOST are above that grade range).

So we take an 1862 quarter for example. The total population of attractively toned coins is minuscule in relation to the total mintage of the coin. But if you only focus on where those toned coins mainly exist, the AU-55 and better range, your ratio is drastically reduced. You have 932,000 total coins for that year. You keep claiming that 1-2% will be toned. Let's go your route and be conservative. 1%, that would be 9320 toned specimens according to the statistic and your math (not mine). That's rubbish simply because there aren't even that many coins remaining in grades AU-55 and better.

To further that, you have two extremely diverging schools of thought. The original skin chaser and the blast white collector. So most of the specimens from this era have been dipped, leaving very few original coins left. If you look at the population of original coins left I promise most of them will be toned or rainbow toned.

So be honest and account for the attrition rate and factor in where rainbow toning typically happens and you can see how these coins are common enough.

Most coins with 'original' skin are toned.

I love how you tried to talk about how the coins I posted were for high rollers and high class coins, but that's EXACTLY what toned collectors are. High class coin chasers. You can't say very few exist and they are rare and that people pay big bucks for them but toss aside my examples.

You are only going to find rainbow toned coins among a certain class of coins anyway and they lay right along with these big boy coins. You aren't going to find rainbow toned dateless buffalos, lol. Or monster toners in bags of junk silver. They only exist above a certain level.

 

Typical. They were as random as possible and to show as many different types of coins in different auction catalogs.

 

Tell you what. Pick one title I posted and I will go back through and take more random shots? That way it's fair and I don't have to take dozens of photos of consecutive pages.

 

I'll give you another example that proves my point. There's two areas where toned coins exist in a much higher ratio due to the coins being older, stored and distributed a certain way, and kept in relatively high grades.

Early commemorative silver half dollars and pattern coins.

They were stored and shipped in tissue paper and many kept in velvet lined coin cabinets. So in order for these coins to remain original today, they had to be toned and left alone to remain like they are. So they've always been traded and sold, we are just witnessing what technology does to things. It adds HyP3 and MONSTER RAINBOWZ and makes it easy to see these coins now that they aren't all tucked away with the ElIasberg's, Stacks, and such.

Our generation added the hype to the coins. And you can just look back at those catalogs I posted. You won't see the words 'monster' or 'rainbow' anywhere prominent. Never the less all of those coins sold and found a home.

 

I agree, but we are not talking about toned coins. We are talking about rainbow toned coins, which are not common.

This conversation is about certified rainbow toned coins and has nothing to do with the average joe collecting circulated coinage. The math already provided shows that within the certified coins on E-Bay, the population of rainbow toned coins is <1%.

He is wrong, we already proved that. The whole auctions he was referring to were not full of "magnificently toned" coins. Did you see my post about what qualified for the rainbow tag at Teletrade? Did you see that even in their own description of their rainbow only auctions that they admit that not every coin is rainbow toned?

Furthermore, the auctions that you showed barely have any rainbow toned coins. I see no more than a handful of rainbow toned coins in all your examples.

The reason there is no mention of "rainbow awesomeness," because it doesn't exist. Again, very few of the coins you posted have rainbow toning and none of the coins you posted have anything to do with the subject of this thread. This thread is about "rainbow toned" coins that drive significant price premiums and the recreation of said coins via artificial toning. The auctions you showed are of ultra rarities with huge numismatic value. The only reason someone would AT one of those coins is to hide imperfections to achieve a higher grade. It is exceedingly rare to find a rare valuable coin that was artificially toned in order to boost value based on eye appeal. If you can find an example, I would be impressed. For purposes of the argument, the coin must be over $1K in an untoned state.

We are not saying that toned coins are a small % of ALL coins minted. We are not even saying that toned coins are a small % of ALL coins extant. We are saying that rainbow toned coins represent <1% of certified coins. Furthermore, the coins we are talking about are in the MS range, because typically, circulated coins are not toned. So when you say "look at the toned specimens in relation to say the surviving pieces of a series in AU-55 or higher where this toning is likely to occur AND now in the arena of collectors who are even looking for higher end pieces," that is where we have been looking the entire time.

 

To be clear, I didn't say it wasn't possible to have an undipped white coin. To do so would be a foolish assumption. Rather, the older a coin is, the greater the probability that it would have toned and the greater the probability that a blast white piece has been dipped.

In short, you misunderstood my point. I would expect a large number of toned (but necessarily rainbow toned) pieces for the date cited so 100/200 or so on Coin Facts says nothing about the subject of this thread.

 

If we're going to go on the trends, yes, older and white legitimately raises questions on originality of surfaces, no dispute. But the Morgan series is a unique case in BOTH cases - toned AND white. Being in a canvas bag for many decades results in lots of toners, if they were near the bag, and lots of blast white, if they weren't. For coins that were "in the real world", neither condition is that common. Outside of interior Morgans, anything else that age that is likely to be toned in some way if it's high grade and original. But we can't rule out careful curation with a wave of the hand either. I do believe that naturally occurring environmental sulfur varies widely from place to place. Ever been to Savannah, Georgia? Oy!

 

Nobody said that 1% of the mintage ends up being rainbow toned. We are talking about the extant population of certified coins in the mint state grades. The mint state certified population of 1862 Seated Liberty Quarters is less than 300. I looked on Heritage and did not find a single rainbow toned example in any grade.

Why on earth would you choose an 1862 quarter as your example? Please keep you eye on the ball. We are talking about coins that are subject to artificial toning by coin doctors. These include common date Morgan Dollars and most 20th century silver coinage minted after 1930.

Your repeated attempts to include rare coins in the discussion is serving only to muddy the water, nothing more. And I don't think that rainbow toned Morgan Dollars are in the same league as the ultra rarities that you have been posting unless you tack on another zero to the price.

 

I don't disagree with you at all here.

 

Related topic but not entirely:

I bought, for a lousy $2, an educational folder made out of vinyl, with ten proof Lincoln cents in it. The PVC film on the coins (not from sulfur, but from PVC) had caused rainbow toning, along with the usual vinyl haze. I acetone treated the 1961 and the 1978-S and the rainbows, and haze, disappeared, and left what little "regular" toning was there. I had never heard of or seen vinyl thin film interference before. Eight remain untouched. I have no idea yet how well that color will photograph.

But upon further thought, how have we arbitrarily decided sulfur toning is good, but vinyl toning is bad? Seems funny to me. I want either for both to be good or both be bad, at some core visceral level.

 

Well, there are only a few thousand certified.

Did you forget how to use the "Reply" button?

 

You would be wise to buy some of these auction catalogs. Many of these coins ARE in TPG plastic. We see the pedigrees, but even in these auction catalogs if you follow the plate number to the description they all say PCGS-XX or NGC-ZZ etc. So they are part of the population of toned coins in slabs.

Again your statistics are skewed. If it is less than 1% of all certified coins, well duh. There is a finite number or close to it of these early classic monster or rainbow toned coins (exempting the tone Drs who can easily replicate these) and an ever increasing population of modern coins and 'conserved' coins (dipping uglies and such), then of course your population is going to appear small.

But again, in context of who collects these 'toned' coins, they will be near the upper end of the collecting scale in terms of savvy and knowledge and understanding of the importance of original skin and the value of one of a kind toning on scarce remaining example for this to even occur.

So look at those catalogs and who would be buying these high end specimens and you start to see these Stacks offerings, ElIasberg's, Newmans, etc. A lot of which had PLENTY of toned coins. Where do you think those coins are now? In our hands trading back and forth.

Also you claim you didn't see any Rainbow toned coins in my photos? What were you looking at?

Just in my first and second picture respectively. I would like to know how these coins specifically don't represent rainbow toning. I may need some education here. And I can take pictures if need be zoomed in for clarity, I just snapped quick shots earlier to show a point.

I'm gonna post lot number followed by denomination. These can be found in those first 2 pictures I posted from the catalogs.

214 5c
232 5c
332 30c
342 25c
271 10c
337 25c
344 25c

347 25c
352 25c
359 25c
361 25c
363 25c
355 25c

And you are also right. These are obviously the plate coins. The keys. These catalogs had TONS of lots, many of which didn't receive pictures. I would imagine the plate coins would give a fair idea of the taste and consistency of these high end collectors so that one could infer that there more common counterparts would look like. Let's take you for example. I would expect if you showed me any key date coin and it was a high grade well toned specimen, I could infer that your easier to obtain coins probably look even better since you can obtain higher quality coins at a discount to the keys and you want them to all match, etc. Same idea with these plates, they are just examples or the highlights of the auction, merely a sampling.

I can take pictures of those listings if you want?

I also found this interesting today:



That's the newest edition of Coast to Coast

Lot of iridescent this, blue-green thats, rainbow toned here, and such. Very descriptive words that aren't found on eBay and yet still can be assured the offering is a decently toned coin.

Toned coins are not hard to find in classic series in grades above AU. They just aren't.

 

Is that a high school club?

 

How is that not rainbow toned?

Or this one?



Hmm



Awful lot of graded rainbows. Those are all in the Buckhead sale catalog

 

If you are asking, then you don't know how to math.

 

Not 1% of minted. 1-2% surviving.

If this were true why do people pay more for toned coins?

When I go to shows I see less then 10% toned, usually 1-2% of coins toned. People said there are a lot at the fun. But what is a lot? Are half the coins in the show toned? No probably no more then 10%. I'm interested to hear how your show experience is. Also remember as Doug said dealers bring their best coins to the show.

When I sold toned coins many had crescent rainbows and they were selling in the $150-300 dollar at the vegas show. Is that super high end?