These two were in a uncleaned lot of 100 I purchased around a year ago. After several months of picking at what seemed to be a granite boulder, I gave up. the rock encrusted coins were still rock encrusted. 6 more months go by and I pull them out of the distilled water, start picking and still the same, Not a bit of rock is comming off. Never have tried the "electrolysis bath" cleaning method so I figured why not, I can see great detail in a few spots. 15 minutes in the bath and 20 minutes picking ( X 5 )! Wow, A shinney Maximianus AE and a Licinius Jr. BUT TO SHINNEY! I bought some dell's darkener and here ya go! I still use the "soak and pick" method and will not use electrolysis for dirt encrusted coins but for large outcroppings of rock that will not budge after a year.... Nuff said! I know there are many mixed feelings on the use of this "shock bath" method and do not wish to start a debate. Just showing off what I thought were going to be, 2 junk box coins. Chuck
Let me say first of all that I own one ancient, which was part of a 200+ coin lot that the seller of my daughter's home left behind. I know nothing about ancients except what I've picked up reading threads here and at other forums. Those threads make it clear that cleaning ancients is standard operating procedure, for very good reasons; and cleaned ancients are not treated with the disdain that newer cleaned coins receive. The only comments I've ever seen on treating shiny coins with Dell's were all in discussions about natural tarnish/artificial tarnish (or toning if you prefer that term). So I am seriously asking whether that is a common step in transforming encrusted ancients into presentable pieces?
Nope, if left alone in the open air they will darken by themselves relatively quickly. It all depends on how aggressively one cleans the ancient encrustations off.
The electrolysis bath cleaning strips away the natural patina from the coin ( the patina being a prized part of most ancient collectors coins ). Removal of rock or mineral deposits on ancient coins will remove the patina in most cases no matter how it's cleaned. Electrolysis cleaning pretty much leaves the coin naked, down to a shinney new looking coin. ( 1500 year old coins should look like 1500 year old coins ) The darkning just eases the coin to a more eye pleasing state. It is somewhat common, many eletrolysis type cleaners swear by it, others would rather see the coin encrusted forever. I've personally only used this method on a few coins as it is rather messy and stinks the garage up. I guess I like my ancient's to please my own eye's and not look like it came from a fresh BU roll of cents. Thanks for your reply Chuck
No, it's kind of like re-toning on a more modern coin that's been cleaned. Good dealers will mention if a coins been messed with by using Dells or Jax or the like.
I thought that rust may become a issue? Of course I dry mine after a final cleaning in the oven, a couple of hours at 120 degrees and then seal them in a light coat of lacquer. I can remember reading something about rust? Am I wrong? Chuck
**warning, Long Rambling Post** It wont rust. Many collector look on artificial toning in the same way more modern coin collectors look upon cleaning. They dont like it, in fact they hate it. Many will also say that electrolysis on a coin is a sin as it robs the coin of its natural patina and will, more often then not, reveal a pitted ugly surface under the patina. Some coins are all patina, taking it off pretty much destroys what little detail there is. Some coins wont be as badly pitted as others but collectors on the whole want a coin with a natural patina and many have said if you are not willing to do the work to manually chip away and clean the coin, its better to leave it as it is for future generations and those willing to do the work.... Like was said above, you would think a dealer will tell you if a coin has been cleaned but the fact is the BEST often will not...maybe they will if it has artificial toning and they know it for sure but in my experience they do not say so...probably in some cases they either dont know or just havent examined the coin close enough...One dealer for example is forum ancient coins. I have bought maybe 3 coins that have been obviously cleaned to the metal. They were cheap because of this, but there was no mention that it was stripped...I assume they were cleaned but who knows...maybe he assumes that if you see a 2000 year old coin that has no toning or patina that you KNOW it been stripped that and the low price. I am in no way critisizing the forum or any seller...but I will be honest when I say I see VERY FEW coins that mention if the coin has been cleaned to the metal (this is obvious) or if it has artificial patina. There are ways to clean a stubborn coin like the ones mentioned here...and it isnt just sitting it in water or oil and scrubbing it here and there or zapping it. You have to get your tools out and manually pry that crud off the coin and it takes a lot of time. Electrolysis is the quick easy way, you can clean it in minutes but you take EVERYTHING off if you dont do it right. When you do it the manual way, you often have to scrape and its almost like sculpting the crud until you hit patina. You need to do it under bright light and magnification and scrape and chip. Even using electrolysis you dont have to strip the coin, even museum use the method but they use a VERY low charge and do not ZAP the coin...They will sit a hundred coins in a tank and low charge it until it loosens some of the crud and then manually clean it...when you are using a jerry rigged charge in a small bowl with no way to control the charge its almost always a strong charge, people will often leave it in until the whole thing is pealing away, etc...that is why, like cleaning your own modern coin, the advice to cleaners is, just dont do it. I am not condemning liberty for what he has done, its his coins and he can do as he pleases, certainly many would say he just ruined 2 ancient coins that obviously had great detail under the crud, they would have liked to see him pick that crud off instead and without doubt if he were to sell them without informing the buyer he faked a tone or patina, he would be ripping them off unless he sold them for basement prices As with cleaning moderns, I do not judge. Its his coins and who is to say what he should and shouldn't do. Just know that when you clean ancients...and although I am not an expert, I have cleaned hundreds, that it is often much more than just soaking and scrubbing, it also often means manually picking, scraping and prying that crud off...often times the soak is just to help loosen it up a bit... Also, when you have coins like that...boil them a bit...the heat will make the coin expand, might crack the crud and give you leverage to pry without making it expand so much to crack the patina. If you MUST zap the coin...use a rather large container and keep your coin as far away from the other wire with your metal chunk as possible and if you can, use something that will allow you to send the weakest possible charge. Zap it for just a very small amount of time then soak again and scrub and pick...dont leave it in to be zapped to the point that you see the crud and patina just peeling off...unless that is what you want to do. I am not overly picky and I end up getting cool cheap coins because of zappers Like this coin I bought from Forum: If I remember correctly it did not say it was cleaned to the metal...but without doubt it was...though it has not patina...the portrait is GREAT in my opinion and I got if for cheap: I would rather have the coin cleaned to the metal and let it redevelop a natural patina then to have a fake one applied. This coin was simply coated with black hard crud...it was like it was encased in rock...It took me a lot of work but look what an outstanding blue green patina was sitting under the rocky crud...to me this is a fine coin with a natural patina that I worked for half a year, soaking, chipping, soaking, scraping, chipping, etc... now for the bad a coin over cleaned with a mixture of vinegar, salt, and flour made into a paste and soaked far longer than it should have been (and it shouldn't have been in the first place. color is off, it actually turns the metal pinkish This is a postumus issue of Constantine I decided to zap...it simply ruined it...I didnt strip it all the way, so now it looks even worse...I only zapped it briefly and very low voltage but for some reason, maybe since it had been scrubbed and cleaned for months, the zap just made the patina fall away in an ugly spotty way with just a light hit. this is what it looked like after just manual cleaning: I should have left well enough alone, kept soaking and scrubbing until that thick green haze thinned out a bit...I am a bit ashamed I ruined such a nice little coin and swore never to zap again. Although I have had successes zapping, after ruining these 2 coins with 2 harsh cleaning methods..I decided to just do the work and wait the time...
If I had one small bit of advice...dont apply a fake patina, let the coin sit as is, bare metal...dont put it in a holder, just keep it exposed and let it tone and repatinate on its own next time...or just keep it metal...if the coin was not pitted...it might look nice! These coins were cleaned down to the metal but they weren't pitted so it looks great IMO: also, seal your coin with Renaissance Wax...not lacquer, just a bit of advice there, the wax can be easily removed if need be and it gentle...its what museums use.
I' still new to collecting ancients. 3 coins in my collection were cleaned this way ( and a hand full of test culls ). These methods were used from info online when I just started out. It's just all I knew at the time, but now I know more (thanks Drusus). I gave up to soon? maybe so, I'd been spending 3 + hours every night on my new intrest. As I said in my first post; There are many mixed feelings on matters of cleaning in the ancient collectors circle. Intend to sell? if so, they will be marked accordingly to let the buyer know what was done. I did what I did, That is all. If I showed my collection, people would not be impressed by the quailty of the coins but I think they would be impressed by the work I have put into them. Chuck Drusus, if intrested, check out the seller roman-coins on ebay again. He has a couple of decent lots on.
Thanks for all the information Drusus. I certainly know more about ancient coins now than I did this morning. :thumb:
thanks liberty, I'll check it out. Also, let me say again that for one, that licinius coin is a a great little coin with him in full military regalia. I think the only REAL thing you did OBJECTIVELY wrong with these was to put a fake patina on them, cleaning them to the metal is a more subjective thing. I, for one, like coins down to the metal if they are not horribly pitted. After all, thats how they were meant to be presented right? They werent minted with a patina If you dont have one already, get yourself a nice dental pic. Drop the coin in a pot and boil em for about 5 minutes, then let them soak for maybe 10-15 in cool water with dish washing soap. Take them out then give them a nice scrubbing with a toothbrush that you have cut the bristles down about half way (to make them more sturdy and stiff) or use a soft brass brush...then after that...soak the coin for a week or 2 in distilled water. After that, take them out and start picking and scraping the crust with the pick...it shouldnt take you 3 hours a day or years to get it clean...maybe more like hours a day for several days if its REAL crusty. Make sure you have a pick somehwat like this one: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=611&zpg=2493 I just use a toothbrush but a soft brass bristle brush will work well...Also for the real tough ones a diamond coated file does wonders to chip away the hard stuff and carve into it. Also, one way I found that I was shock worked so well and people dont seem to post about is tape or elmers glue...I tried it an it worked rather well. Get some packing tape...put the sticky part on the face of the coin and rub it down so it is sticking real well...then pull the tape off...you will often get quite a bit of crust off this way...it will stick to the tape. You might have to do this a few time after soakings...elmers glue works well also but it might be a bit more damaging as it will effect the patina...The tape often doesnt get the coin completely uncrusted, but it will often pull chunks of the crust off and give you breaks that you can then use your pick and pry off more... Anyway...have fun with it...I was in no way trying to discourage you or pass judgement...I think getting a crusty batch of coins and working on them is one of my favorite coin related things to do...Its great to see someone getting into it and I wanted to just give you a few bits of advice from a guy who has tried almost everything But to be honest, with the REAL crusties, it is a time consuming chore. Glad I could contribute something useful for once Roy... I get a bit wordy concerning this issue as it is a bit of a passion of mine.
okay, I did a seller search for roman-coins but I am not getting any hits...could you link one of his auctions here so I can put him as a favorite...BTW...I got some great coins from www.commonbronze.com in the other day, you might want to give him a try. He has a lot of different type lots from your average later romans from the balkans, from britian and Spain... to larger provincial and byzantine...he even had some uncleaned medievel, old jewish and indo/kushan coins...
Very nice coins Libertyseated! I have never had that kind of success with uncleaned coins. Scott has given you some great advice and I know he also likes to get uncleaned coins. He has helped me out before on this and another site and really knows his stuff. It's a learning process on how to do the least amount of damage and what tools work the best. It looks like you have a good source for uncleaned coins and that has been the hard part for me. I hate to drop $40 on bunch of bronze that have no details left. It's really exciting though to remove the earth from something that has not been seen for more than 1500 years . I like when the X for treasure hunting land right on my desk at home. These are treasures to be enjoyed again for sure... Best of luck and thanks for sharing. Darryl
Thanks for sharing the info everyone Drusus, I do have all the picks. I have the wooden type and 6 dental picks. I keep a few of the dental picks dull for finishing and a few are sharp for picking, even have some large needles for getting in the eyes and ears and lettering. Thanks for the other info, I will try it. Try roman-coinz with a "z", I goofed up. His lots are going on monday afternoon. The last lot I purchased had a suprise. A Severus II, 18mm quarter follis in VG/F condition. Happy Hunting everyone! Chuck
