Counterfeits and the law

You can always ask the Secret Service and or the FBI as owning any item that depicting US currency be it coin or paper is a FEDERAL OFFENSE! Punishment is The Federal Pen, for 20 years or less and you can be find also!
I know this as fact as my father was a Federal Reserve Agent. He worked in both non cash { checks, money orders, other negotiate instrument. Bonds,stamps issued by the US government or US treasury) , he also issued and destroyed US currency .
Now it may be true that for one coin the Fed's are not going to raid your home in the middle of the night.
But I personally would be very careful , as it's not worth 20 years 1st. Offense and a Federal criminal record!
And if you think it can't happen well think again.
If you own such an item you need to surrender it ASAP or as soon as you realize it's counterfeit . Ignorance is not an acceptable excuse. As if you show anyone the item and state that it's counterfeit or known to be counterfeit your guilty .
Any item that looks similar to the above mentioned items,must be marked COPY large enough so no intention can be made to be real or use as legal tender.
As a nickel collector I have seen many times the 1941 counterfeit (Henning nickels) and never would own one.
As they could land you in jail.
As the internet is open for ALL to see.... a word of advise if you do own something that you do not intend to turn in that is counterfeit don't post it.




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Paddy, this would be true "with intent to defraud" so your anecdote is simply misinformed.

The Secret Service has gone on record multiple times saying that if you own counterfeits without the intent to defraud there is no problem as no law has been broken.

 

Nope it would not..... as you are willing entering into agreement that is illegal .

 

Well the laws may have changed however for the 47 years my father worked for the Federal Reserve hand in hand with the Secret Service and FBI. A lot of people were charged ,went to trial ,and then in most cases jail.

 

These nickels were made in the 50's, so they would seem to be safe.

If someone were to counterfeit the Henning nickel today, however, that might be a problem. I have heard of counterfeits of contemporary counterfeit coins, so this isn't exactly a fantasy scenario.

 

Yes, originally, "To counterfeit is death."

That's changed.

However, the laws concerning intent haven't changed for about 100 years.

 

Why would anyone want to know whether it is illegal to sell fake coins? I was told counterfeiters join these websites to learn what to avoid, what to do or not do. I am not accusing anyone in doing so, it was just something I remembered.

 

Some of us collect counterfeits, and most modern counterfeiters can't read English very well...

However, when it comes to talking about counterfeits, it's like talking about software exploits. If you don't talk about them, there would be no way to build anti-virus software to combat them.

 

Because many people collect, sell, and trade contemporary counterfeits. There are a lot of counterfeit bust halves from the first half of the 19th century that are worth more than similarly worn real ones of the same date.

 

Education and amusement. Two of my favorite counterfeits I saw at the coin dealer I went to the other day were a reasonably good-looking Trade dollar, and really bad 1804 dollar. I'd like to own both of them if it were somehow legal to do so.

There was also a $10 gold fake that looked good as well, but was of a date and mint combo that didn't exist. I think that would be cool to own, too.

 

As to the question about whether it would be legal to GIVE someone a counterfeit, I think it would depend on what the clause "distribute in commerce" means. Or whether giving it away provided "substantial assistance or support" to the manufacturer or importer of the counterfeit.

Actually the HPA is a little confusing. Sec 2b seems to only apply to the manufacturers or importers of the fakes. Sec 2d seems to be the oly part that applies to people buying and selling them, and it only seems to apply if they are knowing providing substantial assistance or support to those people in violation of Sec 2b the manufacturers or importers.

So if I own an unmarked fake made after 1973 and I sell it, I didn't manufacturer it or import it so I haven't violated Sec 2b, and whom specifically, manufacturer or importer, am I providing substantial assistance or support to?

Since I haven't violated Sec 2b I am not liable for Private enforcement under Sec 3.

I can't tell if I would be liable for enforcement by the Federal Trade Commission but cause it is not spelled out in the HPA.

Under Sec 5 the fake would be liable for confiscation by Customs, if it can be shown to have been imported and not manufactured domestically. There does not appear to be any manditory forfeiture if it was made domestically.

So we go to the FTC rules

Sec 304.3 once again only seems to apply to manufacturers or importers.

Sec 304.6 does require the fake to be marked, but there still seems to be no real penalty in the HPA of the FTC rules except for manufacturer, importers, or those who provide assistance to the manufacturers or importers.

It seems like everyday collector to collector transactions would therefor seem to be governed by the US Code Title 18 Sec 489

Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.

Title 18 Sec 489 appears to make even the contemporary counterfeits made before 1973 illegal to buy or sell.

Basically our legal code is so complex that if they want to get you for something there is a reason in there somewhere they can use against you.

 

There are three classes of people identified in the HPA as amended by the CCPA:

1. Manufacturers
2. Importers
3. Sellers

Note the placement of the ", or"s and how the same three are repeated in Section D:

So, if you make the coins, import them, or are selling them and they were struck after November 29, 1973 they must be marked "COPY."

The FTC regulations are due to be updated to reflect the CCPA's additions.

 

Sounds like it's perfectly legal to own or give away a counterfeit, and many contemporary counterfeits are arguably genuine numismatic items in their own rights.

 

Well Steve that settles it - we need to close down Stacks/Bowers, Heritage, Baldwin's and Spinks right now and every coin company that sells contemporary circulating counterfeits ... I am glad we cleared that up. Buy the GNL book. If you mention this thread I will send you the CDs with free P&H ... really.

Steve ... it goes back to what Dave Bowers once told me ... the average collector spends only 20 minutes/week with coins and his books. In times like these it gets me through remembering this statistic ... about 3-4 months I will contact you about my chapter on Chinese Fakes for my new book - Forgotten if I am not in PRISON.



JPL

 

Thanks Steve, I misread it as "or for sale in commerce" which would have referred back to the importer. You are right it does apply to sellers as well.

 

How you get that smiley face...do you have a link?

 

copy and paste from http://www.clipartpanda.com/categories/smiley-face-thumbs-up-thank-you

 

I'm guilty.





Both are counterfeit and I still own them as educational examples for coin collectors. I have NO Idea of when these were made and I don't really care.

 

Those both look pretty good at first glance. Then, I zoomed in on the top one and saw what looked like a ton of casting bubbles. But, the second one still looked pretty good!

I'm guessing the top one is cast of base metal and the bottom one is die struck on base metal. Am I right? How did you identify these pieces? And who would counterfeit 1971-S Ikes!?

 

Has a collector ever been charged with this crime? And just because they are allowed to charge you doesn't mean they will get a conviction. Unless the jury is brain dead they aren't going to convict a coin collector for 20 years of prison because he likes to collect counterfeits.