The Bruck Thread

#5 is the hardest of the FH to find. There are some intermediate ones that may be 5 or 6 depending on who you ask but I prefer the barbarian to be touching the ground and the horse's head to stretch out rather than being tucked under.
Constantius II from Lugdunum:

 

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Very nice Charles. We've extended the list of emperors with the Jupiter/Eagle type to 7 now: Licinius I, Licinius II, Constantine I, Constantine II, Crispus, Maximinus II, and the usurper Martinian. It would be an easy set to assemble if it weren't for that danged Martinian. Mike Vosper has a decent one for sale at the moment for a mere $2137.17 here.

 

#4 Constantius II FH2 seated. Some like this have the barbarian not quite flat on his rear but struggling upward. Traditional scholars don't separate these out. Arles:

If you are hardcore on the matter, you will like my Lugdunum better since the guy is sitting flat.


I do not own #'s 3,16,17 or 18 so you guys will have to step up now.

 

Just to be difficult: Bruck is not terribly consistent when he lists so many horsemen variations and two Phoenix types in this section but does not list as a separate type the #10 bull that has an eagle at his feet. I agree with his relegating this to the second section but in doing so he should have downgraded the horsemen and Phoenix details. This is a lot like the question o where you mention the #19 with no captive. I believe you will find that the #19 with no captive coins were earlier than the start date for the book but I wonder why he picked that rather arbitrary start anyway. These are questions we might ask the author but it is too late.
#10 with bird

 

My bad. There are three more animals on the next page including the bull/bird coin. Why it was separated from the other one I do not know.

 

His organization is a bit confusing at times, particularly if you don't read German. I'm looking forward to having the English edition.

Doug, here's a coin you'll appreciate. I acquired it recently but haven't posted it because, well...how many Falling Horsemen can you post? This is another example of #8, and I consider it EF grade, even with the scratches on the obverse. How often do you come across one of these with such a strong strike, beautiful style, and clean surfaces?

 

Wanting to play along, I looked through some old mixed lot LRBs that I hadn't paid much attention to. Most aren't in good condition; this is one of the nicer ones.

Type 8? I'm unclear on the distinction between 7 and 8 but am judging by the hat. This poor soldier is about to get stabbed in the throat. What is the decoration on the horse's rump? Is that the horse's rump, or is it a shield?? The soon-to-be-slain soldier sure has a fancy hat. Constantius's expression says "Who, moi?"

Constantius II
AE2, 22 mm, 4.4 gm
Arles mint

 

Nice coin, TIF! In #7 the rider's head is facing forward, in 8, backward. The decoration is just that - some sort of tapestry on the rear of the horse? I believe it's unique to Arles.

 

I'm still confused. On my coin, it looks like the barbarian's head and body are facing towards the guy who is about to spear him. (ie, facing forward). On the drawings you posted, I can't discern the features of #7's barbarian head enough to tell whether it is facing forward or backward.

For that matter, when you say "facing forward" or "facing backward", do you mean relative to the barbarian's body?

 

Hmm. Well, in 7 I see the rider's head facing left, in 8 I see it facing right, toward the Roman soldier. I could be wrong, though - those drawings are not absolutely clear.

 

Great game, JA ... and fantastic coins, gang!!

I'm embarrassed to say that I only seem to have a few of these cool example-types (*sigh*) ... man, I need more coins!!

Here are my already examples ...

#6 Constantius II (FH)
Heraclea mint, 1st Office



#10 Julian II (sweet bull)
Arelate mint, 1st Office



#11 VRBS ROMA
Trier mint



#13 Constans (Phoenix on rocky mound)
Siscia Mint

 

I only have a few myself, Steve. I love your Julian/Bull!

 

I've got a coin of Licinius II with Jupiter, a captive and an eagle. Wildwinds attributed this as RIC VII 30 of Alexandria - Cohen 21. They said denomination is a follis of 12.5 denarii ? How come?? Moreover they made clear that there is " One Example " and abstained from showing any picture or even text.. What could that all mean? I'm afraid I'm going to be a beginner for the remaining years of my life.

 

TIF's coin is a #4 where the rider is off the horse and (almost) seated on the ground like the one I posted at the top of this second page. My coin is doublestruck and worn losing the rump circles. #7 and #8 are variations of what we call FH3 reaching where the rider is on the horse but twists around and reaches back in an attempt to fend off the attack. JA's super nice Heraclea is an 8 because the soldier is resting his knee on the back of the horse. On the first page, Bing showed a typical #7 where the rider is fending off the blow as on 8 but the soldier is standing behind the horse with his feet on the ground rather than kneeling on the horse. I never would have made that distinction a major difference but it was not my book and the author gets to do things his way. When this book was published I was in high school, owned no FH coins and did not read German. If I had known about it, I would not have bought it.

Lets remember that the categories shown by Bruck and numbered by JA for the purpose of this thread are based on observations rather than concrete and certain differences. There may be a coin where the soldier is sort of half way close to lifting his knee - neither on nor off. I don't know. The big difference I see here is the knee on #8 type is given as a size III by Bruck while the standing soldier type is a size II. I'll show a larger (II or AE2) #7 where the soldier is starting to step in but the tail of the horse is still between him and the rider.

and a smaller (III or AE3) #8 where the soldier has moved his knee onto the horse. The tail of the horse is no longer between the soldier and rider.

I rather suspect that this design change was done when the flan size got smaller and they wanted to make the scene a little more compact. Bruck was a very observant gentleman who should be given great credit for seeing that these coins are different in patterns not just randomly or sloppily done as most people who look down their noses at late Romans might believe. The book may not be perfect but it still is borderline amazing. In 1961 there were people who would consider buying a book with a title suggesting you might collect poorly preserved coins. Today, we would not have named it in this way. I might suggest "An attribution guide for fine die variations" or something on that order. I own very few coins poorly enough preserved that I can not identify them without Bruck. That does not mean that I do not enjoy having all these tidbits pointed out. I once corresponded with a very old man who was working on a study of the meanings of the laurel ties and the knot patterns in them. He died and, as far as I know, no one took up his cause. Coin trivia?

 

The coin has XIIs in the reverse field and dates to a time when Licinius halved the value in denarii of account of the common bronze coins. Only mints under his control went with this. The seller probably thinks that a rarity rating from RIC means something or that he can sell a coin for more if you think that. I will say that Alexandria examples are less frequently seen than Antioch ones but I don't know that makes many people willing to pay extra for one.

 

I have a couple myself...
#11


#7 maybe #8


#13


#9


#19 w/o captive..

 

We seem to have gotten most of the easy ones. RIC records type #3 as minted under Constantius II and Constans in Rome. RIC VIII Rome 153. I'm not sure whether it's one of the Rome-only types - I haven't checked the entire catalog.

Here's an example taken from Wildwinds. Not my coin, but definitely on my want list...

 

This last one from Wildwinds is the #3 which Bruck says is Rome only at the top of page 49. It is the companion piece of my new hut coin which was shown on a separate page this week. Both have the N in fields. It is high on my want list, too.