I love it... a "$27,500" unslabbed coin auction with no reserve

"AU+ 1871-CC Seated Liberty Dollar"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AU-1871-CC-...318?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4879bb298e

 

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Sounds from the description that he is saying this coin will be a details AU if slabbed by major tpg. Is that what you get from this?

 

Maybe. At first I just read the part about 'old light cleaning', so I took it as he's saying it is authentic as in "not a fake".

> An old light cleaning with good eye appeal and virtually perfect rims.

Then I read it again after your post and saw this:

> It has been cleaned and will grade as authentic at any major grading service

So I don't know. Either way, it's kind of funny.

 

And from the pics I would say he's right.

 

Gotta bid, Gotta bid, Gotta bid, Gotta bid, Gotta bid, Gotta bid, Gotta bid, Gotta bid, Gotta bid, Gotta bid.

Ah, never mind

 

In ancients, coins will sell for millions without a slab. I don't know why US collectors are so afraid of relying on their own knowledge and dealer expertise. Is it truly to the point no collectors dare buy a coin without their little plastic safety blankie? If so, boy do I feel sorry for them once high grade slabs become commonplace. This is not an if, but a when.

Having said that, I would prefer to see such a coin in hand, or have a dealer I trust inspect it for me.

 

BTW. If you see the sold items of this seller, you will see that this item sold for the first time for $4823.73 and has been relisted( probably the buyer did not pay).

 

Or it got returned because of the cleaning. The first time around, the description only included the "old light cleaning" line. In the re-listing, the seller added the statement that it "has been cleaned and will grade as authentic".

Meh, it's way out of my range. I don't gamble unless I can at least convince myself that I understand the risk.

 

Why does the obverse look worn and the reverse look unc

 

fake..

 

A scenario to explain relisting: It was sent in for grading, came back AU Details (perhaps XF?) Improperly Cleaned, and the original buyer returned it. That might explain the updated description with the emphasis on it being genuine. The seller can always claim grading is subjective, but an old cleaning and harsh cleaning are two different things.

edit - I also thought you couldn't list a price on the 2x2 or is that just grade?

 

Because ancient coins aren't the prime market for counterfeits, U.S. coins are when talking about coins sold to Americans and on U.S. online places.

If I collected cars, I wouldn't require authentication on a $10,000 Ford Pinto...but I would if I was paying $500,000 for a 1960's Porsche or Ferrari.

So you want the safety of what the slab represents but not the slab itself !

 

Looks like this one's been "off to see the wizzard" at least once...

 

Um, well we have been dealing with fake ancient coins for centuries before the first pilgrim shot a turkey, so I do not understand how "ancients aren't a prime market for counterfeits". Maybe in the last 15 years US coins have been counterfeited more, idk, but please do not say that the 500+ years we have dealt with active counterfeiters is meaningless.

Btw, no, I do not want the "safety of the slab", I want the safety that comes from knowledge and trusting respected dealers. The slab is a modern imitation of this, its not the other way around. Coin collectors have educated themselves and used trusted dealers to avoid buying fakes for hundreds of years before the first ANACS slab came into being. I can touch and hold my coins, get a physical connection to it. Can you say you feel the same connection touching modern sterile plastic? I do the same even with my US coins, pulling out a Flowing hair half dollar to touch whenever I feel like it. If my US coins were all in plastic, I would have sold them decades ago. No sense owning something you cannot touch IMHO. Might as well just visit coins in a museum, same affect.

Just to clarify, I do agree with slabs or only buying from a very respected dealer for coins like 1916d dimes, 09sVDB cents, or any coins if the collector has no knowledge. I also keep some coins in slabs like high grade gold since I cannot safely touch them anyway due to fingerprints. However, any coin that I can freely touch without damaging it I immediately crack out of a slab if it happened to come in one. I wish to touch and "play" with my coins. I am darn serious about fake slabs though. US collectors better stop being lazy and relying solely on slabs as their defense, since soon this will be a false security. Not all are, there are some excellent, knowledgable US collectors here, but I see way to many collectors at shows, etc who have no idea how to grade or authenticate, and ONLY rely on what the slab says.

 

Interesting auction piece. It was actually sold twice already. The selling price came down $1000 from the first sale ($5900 ish) to the second one ($4800 ish). It will be interesting to see what he gets this time! Two non-payers? Wow! I have an 1870 CC seated dollar that has environmental damage (It has lots of dark tarnish), but ironically, I am assuming that it hasn't been cleaned and is pretty likely as found. I bought it in an ebay auction for about $1000. The seller was selling it raw, but thought to include the NGC cert number from when it was slabbed as Env Damage - and it is indeed the same coin. So it makes me think that since the seller of this coin admits it was cleaned but doesn't include any previous certification information that perhaps it hasn't been certified in any way that can be easily traced, so it is kind of hard to tell if it's genuine. In the case of my coin, the pattern of the tarnish and light marks leave no doubt that it's the same coin - the advantage of that is that you know a TPG has at least vouched for it's veracity. These CC seated dollars are so scarce that details grade coins are still worth pretty good money. I thought environmental damage was a pretty cool grade for a coin like that, i.e., not perfect but not tampered with either. You have to be interested in spending rare gold double eagle money or more to get one that doesn't have a details grade.

 

I'm talking about telemarketers and Ebay.....their main focus is U.S. coins and probably MSD's.

I see your point, but unfortunately it's not the 1950's or 1960's where you could go to your local trusted coin dealer and buy coins at affordable prices and know what you are buying/getting.

When you pay thousands of dollars for a coin and you aren't rich, then you want the certainty of knowing what you paid for.

Would I buy an ungraded coin from a trusted dealer who told me he could give it to me at a price 2-3 grades low ? Probably....but that's the exception to the rule.

I will touch and feel modern gold coins, and I hope to buy some low-60's Saints in the future that are loose/ungraded and I'll touch those...but I'm certainly not going to break out my MS-65s or future higher-graded or CAC coins, that's for sure !

I do agree with your 'getting close to my coins' sentiments, Medor. But I'll reserve that for coins closer to bullion melt.

 

That one wouldn't be in a slab cause I seriously doubt it's authenticity

 

I suspect the same. Were I inclined -- or looking for a coin like that, I'd prefer that it had been authenticated by NGC or PCGS - details or genuine would be fine. Then if you wanted to break it out you at least would have some professional assurance of authenticity - not that it's foolproof (people have written books about that!)

 

The listing basically suggests that a PCGS grader has authenticated the coin. If this is the case, why isn't it in a details or genuine slab?

 

That part of the listing says "This 1871-CC is unconditionally guaranteed authentic and has been verified by numerous experts, including previous grader for the certification company located in Newport Beach Ca."

It infers it is PCGS without naming it. If there is another one, it would have to be a basement slabber and he is still, by not naming the company, is implying the well-known one. He may think his being 'circumspect' is innocuous, but it accomplishes the same as naming PCGS.

But he is still only the one 'unconditionally' guaranteeing it's authenticity. He, however, relies on some unnamed person who supposedly was an employee at one time for PCGS as verifying it. But who is to say, perhaps there was a former employee of the grading company (heck, perhaps it was the guy that is selling it, who knows?) and suppose that person was really bad at his job, this carries no weight except to people who assume his words are saying it is verified and it is from a qualified person.

I think that he is trying too hard to get it to carry the weight of a PCGS certified coin without having it certified, yet if it was certified as he implies, wouldn't it be more likely to gather a higher price for it? I don't know this particular coin's market, so perhaps he actually is gaining more by selling what some see as questionable coins raw and insinuating they are PCGS certifiable (and given a straight grade, not a details or problem coin.