New book claims copper is as good an investment as gold?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by WilliamGates, Jan 6, 2015.

  1. WilliamGates

    WilliamGates New Member

    I recently read a book from Amazon books titled " Good as Gold: How to profit from the coming boom in cooper Prices." Does anyone know of a good way to invest in cooper without having to invest in coins. It seems as though coins are priced at a handsome premium to the price of copper itself.
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  3. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Best Answer
    Well, there's at least one big problem here.

    Suppose you believe that gold is going to double in price, and you want to invest $100K in it (so you end up with $200K; let's ignore premiums for the moment). That would be a bit over 80 troy ounces of gold. Take it in $50 AGEs, and you'd get a stack about 4 inches high, weighing a bit more than 6 pounds.

    Suppose you believe that copper is going to double in price, and you want to invest $100K in it. That would be almost 36,000 POUNDS of copper, 18 tons. (The standard delivery unit is 25 tons; it might be worthwhile to save up for that next increment.) It still wouldn't be overwhelmingly huge -- a single solid cube about 4 feet on a side. Get it in ingots, stack 'em up, and it would be a bit larger than a half-cord of firewood. But getting it delivered and stored is going to be a fair amount of work. Don't store it on an upper floor, not that you'd want to carry it upstairs anyhow.

    Now, what I can't tell you is where to buy that copper without paying a substantial premium to the spot price. If you're buying in standard delivery lots, I suppose you'd be able to get standard delivery terms, but you'd want to rent a forklift for receiving it, and I'd guess the freight costs would be a few thousand bucks at least.

    How will you secure it while you have it? I'm not sure how much verdigris detracts from its market value, so I don't know how much you'd have to protect it from the environment. Theft is another matter. If people are willing to risk their lives cutting live wires to steal copper, your stack of ingots would be a pretty tempting target.

    When it's time to sell, I imagine you'd need to pay the same fees again. I don't know how hard you'd have to work to convince a prospective buyer that your copper is good.

    Coins, though? No. Just no. Think about the logistics of getting tens of cubic feet of copper coins. It boggles the mind.

    If you're looking for a hobby, getting cents from the bank and sorting out the copper ones will pass your time for sure. You can even get copper below its "melt value" that way; melting copper cents is still illegal, but people will pay a premium for them, and that premium would go up if copper went up substantially.

    You won't get rich, though. Even if runaway inflation means that one day each cent will contain $1.00 worth of copper, that $1.00 will only have the purchasing power that 1 or 2 cents has today.
     
  4. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    You might want to look into an ETF. Don't know if they have them for copper only, but they do have them for PM's.
     
  5. coleguy

    coleguy Coin Collector

    Did the national council on copper write that? Copper mines have been shutting down around here for months.
     
    swamp yankee likes this.
  6. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    I supposed that copper would be a better investment than gold.

    But ONY if I owned a copper mine.

    As for investing in copper?

    First, you'll need to have a smelter and a place where you can melt copper cents.
    Next, you'll have to go out and start buying rolls and rolls of cents in order to pull out the copper ones for melting.

    Then you'd have to find a buyer to buy your freshly made copper ingots.

    In reality though, you'd have to have literally dump truck loads of copper cents that needed melting and I expect that you might attract some attention in doing so?
     
    swamp yankee likes this.
  7. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Best Answer
    Well, there's at least one big problem here.

    Suppose you believe that gold is going to double in price, and you want to invest $100K in it (so you end up with $200K; let's ignore premiums for the moment). That would be a bit over 80 troy ounces of gold. Take it in $50 AGEs, and you'd get a stack about 4 inches high, weighing a bit more than 6 pounds.

    Suppose you believe that copper is going to double in price, and you want to invest $100K in it. That would be almost 36,000 POUNDS of copper, 18 tons. (The standard delivery unit is 25 tons; it might be worthwhile to save up for that next increment.) It still wouldn't be overwhelmingly huge -- a single solid cube about 4 feet on a side. Get it in ingots, stack 'em up, and it would be a bit larger than a half-cord of firewood. But getting it delivered and stored is going to be a fair amount of work. Don't store it on an upper floor, not that you'd want to carry it upstairs anyhow.

    Now, what I can't tell you is where to buy that copper without paying a substantial premium to the spot price. If you're buying in standard delivery lots, I suppose you'd be able to get standard delivery terms, but you'd want to rent a forklift for receiving it, and I'd guess the freight costs would be a few thousand bucks at least.

    How will you secure it while you have it? I'm not sure how much verdigris detracts from its market value, so I don't know how much you'd have to protect it from the environment. Theft is another matter. If people are willing to risk their lives cutting live wires to steal copper, your stack of ingots would be a pretty tempting target.

    When it's time to sell, I imagine you'd need to pay the same fees again. I don't know how hard you'd have to work to convince a prospective buyer that your copper is good.

    Coins, though? No. Just no. Think about the logistics of getting tens of cubic feet of copper coins. It boggles the mind.

    If you're looking for a hobby, getting cents from the bank and sorting out the copper ones will pass your time for sure. You can even get copper below its "melt value" that way; melting copper cents is still illegal, but people will pay a premium for them, and that premium would go up if copper went up substantially.

    You won't get rich, though. Even if runaway inflation means that one day each cent will contain $1.00 worth of copper, that $1.00 will only have the purchasing power that 1 or 2 cents has today.
     
  8. tommyc03

    tommyc03 Senior Member

    Well, looking on ebay and with copper ingots going for $2.50 per ounce and copper around $2.00 a pound right now, I don't think anyone should be considering this as an option for buying and storing. But as stated above, an ETF might be considered with taking possession on paper only.
     
  9. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    Jeff's post is your best response. For a stacker, volume is the first problem with copper. Second is lack of liquid secondary market. Copper is an industrial metal. Most companies who buy it cannot afford to buy from you since they have to have documented vendors for quality programs.
     
    tommyc03 likes this.
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Not what I expected when I started looking, but it actually looks like a good time to buy it.

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  11. mikem2000

    mikem2000 Lost Cause

    It is just a chart and there is always much more that needs to looked into, but that chart right there would scare me to death. The price drifted downwards from $1.50 to $0.75 in 15 years, then spiked big with huge volatility and now has been drifting lower for 3 years. I don't see any reason why it couldn't fall back into the $1.00 - $1.50 range.

    Now you couple that with just a little bit of knowledge that that dollar is strengthening and one of the biggest cost for the miners (fuel) is going down, I just would not want to be on the buy side of that equation.

    Mike
     
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  12. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    It was probably written to benefit the author. His next publication will tout the value of zinc as a replacement for platinum.

    Chris
     
    torontokuba likes this.
  13. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Wait - I would have thought the book would have told you how to invest in copper to make a profit. I mean the title is "How to profit from the coming boom in cooper Prices.". If it does not tell you how to do invest in it, then I am not sure what good it would have been. Then maybe I can write a book. It would be short and sweet - buy low and sell high. :)

    What was the point of the book or a synopsis of what it talked about?
     
    torontokuba likes this.
  14. jmon

    jmon Numismatist In Training

    I think a best investment was writing the book selling the concept.
     
  15. jlogan

    jlogan Well-Known Member

    I know a guy who does this in small amounts
     
  16. sodude

    sodude Well-Known Member

    There is a copper etf (ticker JJC). There are also other base metal etfs.
    You can also invest in copper mining stocks, some of which pay dividends.
     
  17. treylxapi47

    treylxapi47 Well-Known Member Dealer

    I dont know about copper, but I am looking at oil and its ETFs like I look at silver.

    USO is trading below half of its average price right now. It averaged near $37-$43 for almost 10 years, and now is all of a sudden at $18.19?

    Now I know we could be seeing a downward trend in oil for awhile, but something tells me that in the not so distant future, it will return to previous prices, if not higher.

    By the way, where did all the 'OMG WERE RUNNING OUT OF OIL' people all go? How is gas all of a sudden half its peak price? How long before another global conflict tips the scale back the other direction and oil shoots up? How do we all of a sudden have so much oil that people are literally driving the price lower and lower just to sell it? What about in 10 years? 20 years?
     
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  18. torontokuba

    torontokuba Thread Crapper & Hijacker, TP please.

    I should have probably bought the book, before buying any metals. Oh well, some silver and a tiny little bit of gold will have to be the mistake that I'll have to live with.

    No doubt.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
    treylxapi47 likes this.
  19. bkozak33

    bkozak33 Collector

  20. torontokuba

    torontokuba Thread Crapper & Hijacker, TP please.

    A few years ago, I bought a few rounds to toss in as bonuses, when swapping with Europe. I still have a few left. How is my investment doing?

    Copper Rounds496.jpg
     
  21. tommyc03

    tommyc03 Senior Member

    Much of the lower oil prices is due to horizontal fracking which is yielding up oil never before available, same goes for gas. And the shale/tar oil coming from Canada is also affecting prices. On your question of the next world event, it might already be in the works as the King of Saudi Arabia is 95 and in ill health. It is purported that the Crown Prince does not have the same views as the King on production quotas and is not as popular as the King which will affect the way that that country may be ruled in the near future. I have a feeling that if oil makes it below $35.00 our own companies will start shutting down wells here. We will see.
     
    torontokuba likes this.
  22. torontokuba

    torontokuba Thread Crapper & Hijacker, TP please.

    I thought all the factory and industry closures, along with the layoffs, had a major helping hand in the current supply state. Any time we have a crisis, less gas gets consumed, the earth has a chance to recuperate from all the pollution and supply goes up, or, maybe I'm wrong?

    Despite what the article says, I'm sure plant closures and a lack of consumption helped the environment, more so than any gov't program they had in place.

    http://archive.freep.com/article/20130430/NEWS05/304300012/Detroit-area-air-pollution
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
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