How would you respond to this?

See, your response proves what I was about to say. My response would be, "Great, now I have to find some Europeans who don't know the difference or don't care, unload them and start all over again".

 

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my daughter took 6 old silver coins in including a 1948 silver dollar and cleaned them with her dora toothpaste at least she soaked them in it,,i got the coins and gave her a hug,,,,,,,,life is more important then anything we possess ,cheers

 

Looks like you guys and gals covered about all I could think of doing...

 

Is this just a hypothetical, or did this happen to you??

 

i would be wondering how in the world they managed to find them

 

This is not a plausible "what if" because any family members that could possibly come near my coins have been educated by me to know better than to even touch them. I would hate to be the collector who neglected to inform my family members of proper handling. Mine know to leave them alone.

 

I've already had one stroke so another would be in the near future.....

 

Neither you nor the OP stated which family member. Now, you mention a grown woman after I had mentioned a toddler. It sounds like you're trying to make excuses.

Chris

 

What would I be making excuses for or about? I am guess the original poster was not talking about a toddler, because I don't know many toddlers that can say "Oh hey, your coins weren't as shiny as I thought they could be. So I polished them up with an S.O.S. pad". Yes, I was thinking he was talking about a spouse, but it could have been someone else. You like to argue, huh?

 

In case you're wondering, this never actually happened to me. My family knows better. This was just a random "What if" kind of thought.

 

It's hypothetical.

 

Yeah, I like to argue with people who make statements they can't justify.

I'm sorry I wasn't able to enlighten you by using a comparison of a child playing with a knife or a 10 year old knowing what to do with a toddler in the bathtub. Common sense has nothing to do with these instances and it damn sure doesn't have anything to do with coins unless previous instruction was given. Just ask any kid who has used a pencil eraser to clean a Lincoln cent.

Chris

 

Yes, I took that for granted. It was other comments that got me started......snarling dog.....nuclear blast......etc.

Chris

 

Ahem....
Europeans were collecting coins long before America has been discovered. Maybe are you too young to know

Best
Q

 

... and, in such a short time, they managed to establish a standard by which cleaned and polished coins are frowned upon. I'd say that's pretty impressive. What have the Europeans been doing in all that time? My European roots, European encounters with collectors and European coin purchases have been overwhelmed by the clean first, think second strategy. In Europe, large silver coins and other valuables get cleaned regularly with the silverware on Sundays.

Is this to be the European legacy?
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3837036-016

Are you not aware enough of your surroundings?

I've watched an entire grading industry evolve in Europe, by grading garbage with high MS grades. There are at least 5 players in that game and only one, a more recent addition, has ever released a "Details" grade label. If your years of experience allow you to enter this discussion, we can compare a few of them. One of these TPGs has now closed its official operation in Europe, only to move to India, with reps in China and Thailand. They now slab fakes without fear of breaking the law, on top of the regular cleaned and polished crap they used to slab in Europe. I hope you're old enough and experienced enough to know some of these European TPGs.

You know it's bad when the word "Excessive" makes it onto the label...
http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2033901-007



Ou est l'inventivite europeen?



Here they throw the word "Tooled" onto the label and display two sets of images under the link, to more accurately present the coin damage...

http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/27852176/

 

btw, that's a snarling black panther......

 

I think 99.9% of us knew that.....

 

@ torontokuba

Wow !
Did I put the finger on something itchy ?

They have been collecting coins, not plastic slabs, I guess

More seriously, no offense was meant sir.

I really think the collecting philosophy is very different. Wrong or right, most people here want their coins for style, engraving skills, patina, etc...

Just to feed the debate, here are (in disorder) some reflections that come to my mind about that

To us, the competition about sets of american coins and their average state seems really weird and strange.

The state of preservation is of some importance, of course, but most don't care (you were right in there, much more than on the "don't know") about a coin being 62 or 63 or 64, which seems pointless to many. As I'm collecting ancients, and have been for 30 years, it's not a concern I have

To each his/her own will you say, and you'll be right. Good for the new world if they're happy with their slabbed PF-66 (I'm a bit afraid some people are going to make a lot of profit buying at lower grade and selling at higher, and not sure it will be the real collector).

As for the ruined examples you show, who cares ? If people are stupid enough to harshly clean their coins, and stupid enough to then get them slabbed, good for TPG business

To go back to ancients, when I come across a roman silver denarius which is as cleaned as my shoes, and ask the seller why, the answer is most always : "that's for the american market, they do like cleaned ancient, they are afraid of dirt". IMHO, it's much more a crime than cleaning a Morgan doller, available by millions

Best regards
Q

PS : If my english sounds weird or "heavy", it's not intentional on my part, english isn't my mother language

 

Yeah, I realized my oversight yesterday, but I figured I'd give others something to nitpick over rather than correct it.

Chris

 

I do not focus on slabs much and I never assign grades to my coins. The state of preservation is of the utmost importance. My experience tells me that we have the American idiosyncracies to thank for educating us in that regard.

The "don't know" is a huge part of the up and coming market in Europe. I speak with and encounter these newbies daily. I frequently get emails asking me for my opinion, if a photo in a European auction shows a cleaned coin.

English would have been the second language I learned, French is a work in progress, without much exposure. You don't have to make excuses with me. I use my first language to participate in forums and educate the young and willing European masses within this hobby. I forward and translate the American market established references and resources because they are invaluable.

I do not burden myself with a do not care attitude when it comes to surface preservation. I do not have an account with any TPG service. I have never sent a coin in to be graded. If a discount in a slab presents itself, I buy the odd one.

Instead of living under a rock and being uninformed of my surroundings, I choose to absorb the valuable information that is free to all (thanks to the American market) while not taking part in and completely disregarding the games you describe between TPG absorbed buyers, sellers and service providers.

I guess I care enough to change a few minds and attitudes on your side of the big drink. It's a shame that your type of attitude has dominated the European coin market for so many centuries.

Ancient coins aside, Europe treats it's more modern coins like garbage and has done so for centuries, right down to today. They just don't know any better because too many people say "who cares?".

I understand, none taken beyond this topic. While gauging eachother's age or experience, I just thought we might as well throw in a few substantial arguments into the thread. Cheers!