PCGS vs. NGC - anyone send the exact same coin to both?

PCGS cleaned cracked out became NGC cleaned

PCGS cleaned cracked out became NGC questionable color.

PCGS ms62 with putty (or something) to NCS then to NGC ms62.

 

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Based on some of the words you use in your posts, I presume you know how to use statistics and know that a study would need to be designed in a very particular way for one to assess what you are asking. Such a study has been proposed by myself and by others over the years. Of course, no such study would ever cover all of your bases, as there are too many moving target variables.

For example, say you "show" that PCGS is more strict that NGC today. That doesn't prove anything about the millions of coins that were graded before today. The "tightness" of NGC and PCGS ebbs and flows. And, what further complicates the issue is that there is NOT a definitive third opinion outside of NGC and PCGS that is a gold standard. Assessing the "strictness" of a grade without regard to a fixed reality has no meaning.

All people can tell you are their personal anecdotes about a coin here and there. Every anecdote can be countered with an opposite experience anecdote. In the end, all that matters is that each collector knows what he/she is doing, and spends his/her money on coins that meet a certain personal standard. The numbers on labels inside of slabs are guides, but are not magical.

The use of TPG grades reminds me of the old analogy of the drunken man and the lamp post. Do not use the lamp post (TPG grades) as a crutch/support on which to lean, but use it as a form of illumination (opinion) as it was intended.

 

I sent two 1861-O seated half dollars, each with the WB-102 CSA die crack, to NGC for grading. One came back as F-12 and the other as VF-30. I then cracked the holders and sent both coins to PCGS as raw ungraded coins. PCGS returned the coins with an upgrade from NGC, F-12 to F-15 and VF-30 to XF-40.
NGC certs 2593901-001 and 002. PCGS certs 28855380 and 28855381, I was surprised, who's right. NGC brings up the pictures of both coins

 

IMHO TPG's were created for the investor and not the casual collector. This happened with comic books and lunch Boxes, etc. with their separate numerical grading systems. Grading, unless TPG's have strict written standards for all coins, as stated above, is a subjective thing based on the "eye of the beholder". I have my collections and I use TPG's strictly for coins I wish to sell and grade my collection coins myself.

 

A control group would definitely make this more concrete, and I agree, grading is highly subjective in the eye of each beholder. 100 years from now, there may be a completely different system of how to grade and look at coins. There are also other fleeting variables to consider as you've mentioned, which would make this study less accurate.

 

Well said and one No one will agree on.
Heritage and other have a upper hand on grades. No matter what you believe.

 

My understanding for the reason to get a coin graded by PCGS or NGC, over second and third tier graders, is purely due to greater economic benefit and "better quality grading services". I'm assuming, then, that PCGS and NGC has far greater standards than other grading service providers, which in turn demand higher prices. Or, are the grading services of these other TPGs just as good, but it's somehow become convention, perhaps due to the consistency of quality control of having long tenured experts doing the grading? Are the opinions of these non-PCGS/NGC graders just as accurate as PCGS and NGC graders?

It also sounds like from people's experiences and observations that PCGS's stricter grading over NGC is false (?), and that auction house results will show no correlation.

Just trying to figure all this out. Thanks so far everyone!

 

Your comment is the exact situation which exists today. On both levels.

The TPG's are just grading services which are selling "opinions" of grade. Nothing more and nothing less.
Exactly ZERO percent of their "opinions" are exactly right since the "grade" of a coin is not really a technical aspect of its condition. The "grade" is what the graders feel the coin be attract in market sales. The market sales are based upon either their experience OR data which they have collected from various sources. (i.e. Authorized Dealers, collectors, major auction houses, minor auction houses)

Your last statement goes without saying in that "coin collectors" as whole are usually encumbered with some level of OCD and having a collection of "mixed grades" is usually out of the question. Having grades within different slab types is also a no no. Most slab collectors (meaning NOT Coin Dealers) prefer one TPG over the other and it really has absolutely nothing to do with assigned grade as much as it has to do with presenation consistency.

 

This is really true. BUT, its the experiences that "I" have which is what "my" opinions are based upon. I know what coins I have submitted and why I submitted them.

I have no idea, other than photographs, what coins other submit. Therefore, my opinion counts for "ME".

I'm also of the opinion that whichever grading company makes it the easiest for that very first submission, will also be the TPG of choice. It is simple human nature to go with what you have experience with.

Again, just my opinion.

 

Here, for your consideration, is a copy of PCGS's "Strict" Grading standards.

PO-1 Identifiable date and type
FR-2 Mostly worn, though some detail is visible
AG-3 Worn rims but most lettering is readable though worn
G-4 Slightly worn rims, flat detail, peripheral lettering nearly full
G-6 Rims complete with flat detail, peripheral lettering full
VG-8 Design worn with slight detail
VG-10 Design worn with slight detail, slightly clearer
F-12 Some deeply recessed areas with detail, all lettering sharp
F-15 Slightly more detail in the recessed areas, all lettering sharp
VF-20 Some definition of detail, all lettering full and sharp
VF-25 Slightly more definition in the detail and lettering
VF-30 Almost complete detail with flat areas
VF-35 Detail is complete but worn with high points flat
EF-40 Detail is complete with most high points slightly flat
EF-45 Detail is complete with some high points flat
EF-45+ Detail is complete with a few high points flat. Superior eye appeal.
AU-50 Full detail with friction over most of the surface, slight flatness on high points
AU-50+ Full detail with friction over most of the surface, very slight flatness on high points. Good eye appeal.
AU-53 Full detail with friction over 1/2 or more of surface, very slight flatness on high points
AU-53+ Full detail with friction on only 1/2 of surface, extremely slight flatness on high points. Positive eye appeal.
AU-55 Full detail with friction on less than 1/2 surface, mainly on high points
AU-55+ Full detail with slight friction on less than 1/2 of surface, on high points. Eye appeal is good.
AU-58 Full detail with only slight friction on the high points
AU-58+ Full detail with the barest trace of friction on the highest points. Superior eye appeal.
MS/PR-60 No wear. May have many heavy marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-61 No wear. Multiple heavy marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-62 No wear. Slightly less marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-62+ No wear. Still slightly above number of marks/hairlines, strike may not be full. Attractive eye appeal for grade.
MS/PR-63 Moderate number/size marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-63+ Average number of marks/hairlines, strike will be close to average. Good eye appeal for grade.
MS/PR-64 Few marks/hairlines or a couple of severe ones, strike should be average or above
MS/PR-64+ Very few marks/hairlines or a couple of heavier ones, strike should be average or above. Superior eye appeal.
MS/PR-65 Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike
MS/PR-65+ Very minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike and eye appeal
MS/PR-66 Few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, good strike
MS/PR-66+ Very few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, very good strike with superior eye appeal
MS/PR-67 Virtually as struck with minor imperfections, very well struck
MS/PR-67+ Virtually as struck with very minor imperfections, very well struck with attractive eye appeal
MS/PR-68 Virtually as struck with slight imperfections, slightest weakness of strike allowed
MS/PR-68+ Virtually as struck with very slight imperfections, the strike must be virtually full. Eye appeal must be very good.
MS/PR-69 Virtually as struck with minuscule imperfections, near full strike necessary
MS/PR-70 As struck, with full strike


Please make note of all the "Virtually as Struck" or "As Struck" notations.

IMO, there is nothing strict about these standards what so ever as the wording leaves lots and lots of room for "opinion". Which is really all it is.

Make no mistake, the coin market as it exists TODAY is solely because of the TPG Business model combined with the Internet.

Before TPG's, a collector or dealer had to rely solely upon the "opinion" of the person selling the coin(s). Often times, as it is today, those opinions are inflated simply because nobody wants to lose money on a coin transaction.

How often does the forum host a thread where the OP disagrees with the assigned TPG grade claiming that, in their opinion, it is too high? (Usually the OP doesn't own the coin)

How often does the forum host a thread where the OP disagrees with the assigned TPG grade claiming that, in their opinion, it is too low? (Usually the OP owns the coin)

How often does the forum host a thread where the OP thinks the coin should not have graded due to some flaw? (Usually the OP does not own the coin)

How often does the forum host a thread where "others" think the coin should not have graded? (Usually, the OP owns the coin)

It's a market, it's a business and it's all based upon how much "hay" which has passed through the digestive system that we are willing swallow.

 

Ok, but to make sense of this kind of information, you would have to track it over time (grading standards change), by series, and by variety (when variety affects grade).

For example, regarding bust quarters, I don't trust PCGS. I find their grades are highly inconsistent for this series, especially for varieties that have known strike weakness. NGC grades are significantly more consistent for this series, though they clearly net grade and are a bit more liberal than the ANA standards, which is actually more in line with the market reality. A lot more collectors use NGC than PCGS for this series for these reasons, but I'm sure there are series where the exact opposite is true, or where they grade about the same. Knowing this type of information by series will help predict how a coin will cross, though there will always be some margin of error due to subjectivity.

 

My 55DD was a NGC MS61BN, crossed to PCGS AU58 and later green beaned.

 

In a nutshell, if you are that familiar with bust quarters, you really should not care what the TPG's think regards the grading.

This should be true of virtually every coin series out there.

 

Wait, so getting back to my last post... are 2nd and 3rd tier TPGs' opinions on coin grading just as valid and accurate as NGC and PCGS gradings? If their opinions are just as accurate, then why are NGC and PCGS gold standards? Or does NGC and PCGS just have better experts for more consistent quality control?

I understand it's all a business model... so, is it sort of like Coca-Cola and Pepsi (NGC and PCGS, in no particular order), vs RC Cola (2nd tier) vs generic brand (3rd tier; e.g. Wal Mart branded soda)? If it's like that, I can see how it's all opinions on what "tastes" better for coins, and how the top tiers demand a higher premium.

Is it like this "Cola" analogy for TPGs?

 

Not so. You can both know what the grade should be and at the same time care what the TPGs are doing. It affects the market and that affects the liquidity and value of your coins; even if they are raw.

 

Like you, I too have a TPG of choice, ANAC's. But I started out earlier on with ICG. After watching dealers price lists for a long time I noticed less dealers selling ICG slab and more PCGS. I don't like having to send my coins through a 3rd party (coin dealer) so I deal direct with ANAC's. They have treated me well, run specials on fees and shipping and most come back at what I expected for a final grade. The same goes for my comic books. There was a lot of controversy in the early years of PGX vs. CGC. With CGC you have to use a dealer, not so with PGX. Earlier on when PGX first started CGC started a campaign to dis-credit their only competition. PGX fought back with much stricter standards and today they both still compete but the little guy finally made their statement by providing quality work and still do. With only 4 major coin grading services making the grade, competition will rub out the little guy only if the big guy messes up. The volumes of coin submissions and the time frames the TPG's live by can also be a factor in rushing things. Think of the volumes of slabs being marketed by the big box coin companies, like first strikes and such. This worries me more than anything as a small time collector tries to get their feet wet in this hobby and think these coins will ever have a real market 10-20 years down the road with so many millions of them being sold.

 

Any collector interested in long term success in this hobby absolutely MUST learn to grade for themselves. There is no other way around it.

 

No. Cola is matter of taste preference - while I may strongly disagree with your choice, there is no generally accepted right or wrong answer, because there is no standard. You can't compare RC cola against a standard and say "Because of this, RC cola is inferior."

The marketplace has decided that the 2nd and 3rd tier graders are sub-par because, on average, they fall short. There are three main issues:

1. These graders are less accurate. The marketplace has decided that the grades NGC and PCGS give are the accurate grades. They don't publish their standards, so we can't really compare them to a reference, but the marketplace has made the Top 2 a defacto reference. You could say that the ANA grading guide is the reference, but even then it is questionable. In short, the marketplace has decided that NGC and PCGS grades are, on average, the correct grades.

2. These graders are less consistent. While NGC and PCGS don't always get it right, they are usually within a grade point (or maybe 2 in the most egregious cases). The second and third tier graders will often vary by a much wider margin.

3. (Most of) The other graders have no guarantee. This may not seem like a big deal, because it isn't often excercised, but NGC and PCGS guarantee their grades, and any problems which may arise. If a coin is later proven to have a problem (putty, counterfeit, etc), NGC and PCGS will pay for the coin. If the grade is later found to be inaccurate, NGC and PCGS will buy back the coin. Having a guarantee like this goes a very long way to establishing the trustworthiness of a company.

 

ok thanks! More accurate, more consistent, and guaranteed... so less mistakes are likely (?) compared to other tiered TPGs, thus you can rely on NGC and PCGS's grades more.

 

Well lets put it this way............

Suppose, in a year or two, its found out that someone at one of the Top TPG's has been fixing grades. Playing favorites. Selling coins that they themselves have graded.

Do you suppose that folks who are heavily invested in the offending TPG are going to get good value for their slabbing investment?

Now, if I had two 1978 MS65 Eisenhower Dollars which were undisputably solid for the grade and I put them both up for sale on an auction site, which coin would sell for more?

If you said PCGS then, Yayyy! You win!!

You see, its not the fact that the PCGS coin was graded more strictly because, remember, both coins were undisputably MS65's and accurately graded.

So, are the bidders buying the coins or are they buying the plastic?

If you said "Plastic" then Yayyyy! You win again!

IMO, if you are "collecting", then you need to rely upon "your" opinion, not someone elses. If you like the coin which resides in ANACS plastic, then that's fine.
If you like the coin in PCGS plastic, that's fine as well.
Likewise for NGC, ICG, SEGS and (dare I say it) SGS.

If you are going to collect "coins" then collect coins.
If you are going to brag about the actual market value of your collection, then collect plastic.

Remember, Louis Eliasberg did not own a single slabbed coin.