How on Earth could PCGS have graded this coin problem free?!!!

Seems like there's a lot of resentment among certain collectors about the influence TPGs have, or even a divide between those who embrace them and those who resent them. As a new collector learning from the outside and doing a ton of shopping, a few things became very apparent early on: 1) Most people are in agreement about the pecking order of the TPGs, 2) Most people are in agreement that NGC and PCGS are in a class by themselves in terms of resale value, warranted or not, and 3) The TPGs are not consistent, although there is little consensus about why, when, or even who.

Pretty fascinating topic to me, actually. I definitely see the value of the TPGs, since so many people buy online. Without them, you'd almost have to buy in person.

 

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While I think both NGC and PCGS have their bad moments (questionable grades, etc...), I'm glad they are around. It's taken a lot of the gray areas out of the hobby.

 

Wait a minute! What type of coins were they? What plastic did they start in? Which TPG were they sent to? And are you saying that 20 MS64's turned into 3 MS65 and 17 MS66?

 

All were Morgan dollar 1878-1921 Pcgs grade 2003-2006 .
Then Pcgs graded again in 2010.

 

The people who believe that the TPGs deliberately lowered their standards believe that this happened sometime in the 2003-2004 range. Those same people also widely agree that the TPGs became more conservative in their grading after 2008 in order to capture the CAC market. You are claiming that grades are dependent upon who submitted them but graders are not privy to the name of the submitter when grading the coins. Are you sure that the guy who is claiming these coins upgraded is not pulling your leg? If his story is real, he is undoubtedly the singe best cherrypicker of undergraded coins in the history of numismatics. Morgan Dollars are extremely easy to grade and there is usually very little movement in grade upon resubmission.

 

David Lawrence .
Their was five folks that cherry picked for three years til the 20 were submitted .

 

So it took five professional numismatists 3 years to find 20 coins that were undergraded through a concerted effort of cherrypicking with access to hundreds of thousands of Morgan Dollars. Sorry, but that does not qualify as the TPGs giving preferential treatment. All it proves is that the guys from David Lawrence know their business and that their is subjectivity inherent in coin grading.

 

Wait, are you saying that PCGS changed their standards in 2003-4 and then further loosened their standards prior to 2010? Almost everyone agrees that the TPGs became more conservative after the inception of the CAC in 2008. I guess you don't believe CAC had any effect huh?

 

Huntsville Alabama hasn't millions of Morgan dollar to hunt.also only one I would call expert. That not me .The End

 

Huh???? I thought you said it was David Lawrence that submitted the coins? Can you please explain what you are trying to say rather than making me decipher your riddle like posts.

 

I'm detecting sour grapes with some of the comments here.

Nothing more and nothing less.

FACT: Coins are NOT graded by the same two graders and single finalizer
FACT: Four, Six, or Eight "different graders" can and often do come to a different consensus.
FACT: Finalizers don't have to "grade", they just have to "agree".

These facts open the door to differences in grading opinions.

Question for Jello: Were the box of 20 coins submitted as:

A. Crackouts ?
B. In Holder Regrades ?
C. Reconsideration ?

Crackouts can very widely in opinions
In Holder Regrades are perhaps the toughest since a grade has already been assigned AND PCGS has to decide on whether or not they stand behind their originally assigned grade. And yes, I know that the grades are supposedly covered.
Reconsiderations are an incentive for the grading company to get Much. Much more for their grading opinion since 10% of the final value is their reward for deciding that a coin should upgrade. I'm not saying that this is the case. I am saying that money is a fairly large incentive to "see it my way" especially given the subjectivity of the grading "opinion".

 

Even though I'm the one who started this thread I still agree with your statement. I just hope that the TPG's don't become so lax that their opinions stop being respected in the marketplace. The slight inconsistency in numerical grading doesn't bother me so much. It's the tendency to put problem coins in problem free holders that makes me nervous, and I hope the original coin I posted is an isolated incident.

To put it in simple layman's terms, if I buy a coin that is certified problem free in any grade, I expect that it won't suck. So what if somebody thinks a 64 really should have been a 63 because it doesn't have quite enough luster? But if there is a trend toward slabbing coins that are scratched, nicked, damaged or scrubbed with a Brillo pad, then the system is in real trouble, because the whole purpose of slabbing is to create predictability in the market.

I hear a lot about how the TPG's are just responding to what the market wants. I hope they are reading this thread then, because I don't think most of us want to get that long awaited certified coin in the mail and find a big scratch or some other nasty surprise.

 

I hear you. The coin in you OP should never have made it into plastic. Just my opinion.

 

I would say that the standards have swung from time to time, but disagree with the notion that the standards have been intentionally loosened. The fact is that they have always graded coins improperly from time to time. This has ben true since day one. I have plenty of old rattlers that I would consider generously graded.

 

NGC *and* PCGS?

I think more people submitted to NGC to get the better grade.

 

Absolutely true. We can bash on them a lot but we are much better for them. I buy pretty much only slabbed coins because I think its the best form of preservation as well as the best security on the investment. The grade on the holder, even if it is wrong gives you bargaining power when you go to liquidate the collection, and whether people admit it or not every collection gets sold at some point. As the buyer, you just have to scrutinize every purchase which is part of the fun of the hobby.

With that said though, I think market grading is getting worse, with PCGS leading the charge of slabbing net graded or overgraded coins. Whether this has an effect on the market is probably yet to be seen.

 

I may not have all the knowledge as most, if not all of you have. But as a collector of almost everything, baseball cards, coins, paintings, etc, I buy what I think the object is worth. If I have a question about a defect or such, I ask for a clearer/closer picture of the item. When I get the item in hand and I feel like I over paid, I take it as a learning lesson and move on. I agree with buy the coin, not the holder. That's the same as buying baseball cards. You have to make your own sound judgement before the purchase. As with the coin mentioned on this thread, I wouldn't buy it, if I knew without a shadow of a doubt that it was a minting error.