Ancients - Septimius Severus - AVG II C - MONETAE AVG

I have been building a collection of the Eastern denarii of Septimius Severus over many years. I have many sub-collections within this, amongst them is a small collection of an enigmatic sub-series with some unusual obverse legends such as AVG II C and AVG II CO.

These coins are all sufficiently rare that I will gather them in whatever grade I can find them and will collect as many examples from the limited number of dies as I am able.

The AVG II C coins are known from three different obverse dies. There is a very limited number of reverse types known from these dies. I have recently added a third example of the Moneta standing left variety to my collection, which is the third of the coins illustrated below.

The coins show two of the three known obverse dies and each coin comes from a different reverse die. Curtis Clay has catalogued two other examples of the type which he donated to the British Museum.

Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SE-V PERT AVG II C, laureate head right
Rev:– MONETAE AVG, Moneta standing left, holding scales in right hand, cornucopia in left





I think my habit has gone beyond collecting and drifted well into obsession.

Martin

 

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You and Doug both seem pretty obbessed, but as long as your enjoying the hunt and learning, nothing wrong with it.

Really like the second & third ones.

 

I find myself looking for these rarer Eastern mint SS. Shame on you and Doug for infecting many of us on CT.

Nice coins BTW.

 

Very nice pieces.

 

We dig on the Septimius because he has the coolest profile in all the empire. your number 2 coin has it displayed nicely. He is the ultimate bad ass!

 

Great coins, Martin! My only Eastern denarius of Severus...

 

My only SepSev denarius. Laodicea, struck 198AD
L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG P M IMP XI, laureate head right
VICT AVG G C OS II P P, Victory walking left w/wreath right hand, palm in left.
RIC IV 499

 

I can not be called obsessed as long as Martin continues to have twice as many as I do. I don't have very many of the IIC series at all. I think Martin bought most of them. This obverse has a die break at 1 o'clock that gets a bit larger as time progresses but I don't have one with this die and no break. Martin?
The Fortuna has a stutter in the reverse legend REREDVC.

 

you guys continue to impress ... honestly, it is the best battle on any of the coin sites!! (Doug & Martin => Sep-Sev Showdown!!) ... pretty to watch, brothers ...

=> please keep-up the amazing show!!

 

Sweet looking denarii coins.

I have been slowly infected with denarii fever too. Maybe not Septimius but I'm looking to add more denarii to my collection.

 

Perhaps I should point out that Martin and I have concentrated on the Eastern mint denarii of Septimius. Some people also collect his Rome mint coins which are very different. There are even some Rome coins that are both rare and interesting and much more easily available in super high grades. In addition to the Eastern coins, I do collect Rome coins of the first years of his reign including the popular legionary series honoring the legions by number that supported him in the very first days of his bid for power. Missing numbers either hesitated (bad choice) or supported the other candidates for the purple (really, really bad choice). Septimius had many good points but I don't think most people thought of him as a laid back, nice guy.

A couple coins of 193 AD from Rome:

 

Nice addtions! I think we all are a little obsessed

 

Doug,
The die break is very distinctive on that AVG II C die.
We can certainly see it starting to develop on your examples. I have a couple of coins that show how it has developed further and further...
FORTVNAE REDVCI, Fortuna (Pax?) seated left holding branch and cornucopia

MARTI VICT, Mars advancing right carrying spear and trophy

VICTOR IVST AVS (sic), Victory walking left, holding wreath in right hand, palm in left

The following coin doesn't show evidence of the break though!
CERER FRVG II COS, Ceres standing left, holding grain ears in right hand, torch in left

Martin

 

Help me with this "die break" thing. What is it that you see? I'm not sure what to look for.

 

JBGood: Look at the V in SEV just left of the tip of the laurel wreath on the portrait. As this die deteriorated that V became progressively more and more a blob of metal. This enables us to tell which coin was made first and which later since dies get worse but never 'heal'. Dies were not hubbed so every one was one of a kind. tracking die deterioration is just one more toy which keeps us occupied.

This is exactly the sort of thing I love to find. Your (Martin's) Ceres IICOS is the least broken I have seen. I believe there is a dot above the right arm on the V???? My Ceres without the IICOS on reverse has a smaller break than most but a lot more than yours. Your coin with VICTOR IVST AVS has the greatest break so it was last of those shown. BUT, and I see this as a big thing, your VICTOR IVST AVS die is the same as mine using the so called 'first legend' ending in AVG.


How is it that the first legend reverse was used after the last made of the IIC legend coins? I now have to suggest that all these dies resided simultaneously in the mint and were combined somewhat randomly during the very early part of 194 AD. At least we have to allow for the mint combining old left over dies - perhaps near the end of the time the mint was open??? All of these coins (-AVG, -IIC, -IICO etc.) were made in a very short span of time. We feel like a common coin is one with a half dozen known specimens. I continue to feel that the mint practice was to lock up obverse and reverse dies separately when the mint was closed (at night?) so we nee to be very careful making assumptions of sequence here. Too many people assume that the die use pattern proven one place (as with Boehringer's study of Syracuse) will hold true elsewhere. Not so.

Has this been discussed elsewhere to your knowledge? I have not kept up with anything published since Roger Bickford-Smith died almost 18 years ago.

I now return control of Coin Talk to those who do not live for Eastern coins of Septimius Severus. If you read the above all the way through and are looking forward to Martin's reply, there is no hope for you but remember that the hobby for some of us is finding light where there once was darkness. We are not trying to own the best coins but we are trying to understand them all. The problem is there are so few of us who care than when two of us get together like we can here (there is an ocean between us) Coin Talk is a great service to people like me. Thank you CT.

 

OK, I see the die crack and I understand how it is showing degrees of degradation over time. Very helpful.

My ignorance knows no bounds so I will bravely ask the following:
a) how do you know these are from an eastern mint? Previous attributions in reference works? by the style and legends?
b) how do you know it is early in his reign? 194 AD?

 

Doug,
I think that it is a bold statement to assume that the IIC, IVST AVS was struck before the first legend coin. The reverse die might have been used later. Your IVST AVS certainly seems fresher as you can see the legend alignment circle clearly on your example. It would certainly seem to link the two sets of coins to the same mint. I am tracking other reverse die links too to gather as much evidence on this output as possible. These odd legend (II C, II CO etc.) had been suggested as possibly coming from another mint but die linkage evidence would seem to defy this.

JBGood
These coins come from eastern mints based on a variety of factors. Septimius Severus travelled to the east to battle Pesc. Niger during the early part of his reign. The style of these eastern coins is quite distinctive and can be differentiated from Rome mint coins purely on style.
Research has attempted to determine the chronology of these coin. The IVST AVG illustrated by Doug has an undated obverse legend and is placed at the start of production as it is at Rome and these coins are typically allocated to A.D. 193. There is a large issue that comes later dated COS II, which is typically dated A.D. 194-195. There are some issues that prove more problematic with dating. These II C, II CO and otherse are the most problematic as they are all rare and die linkage to other issues is limited. There is another issue ending COS I which is more closely linked with the COS II issue. These II C etc. have closer links to the first legend issue.

Martin

 

Yes, all this shows is that the last use of the reverse die was after the majority of the IIC coins had been made. What we do not know is whether the die remained in use for most of that span of time or if it was returned to service after a period of retirement. A lot of this might be easier to understand if we knew how much time is covered here. My guess is that the whole AVG to COSI period was only a few months (December 193 to February 194, perhaps) before things settled down and the dies were all COS II. In addition to the dies and style, we also have to consider the fabric of the coins and other possible clues. Finally, while I agree that these coins came from one mint, it really is not proven since it remains possible that a mint might be closed and personnel and equipment transferred to the other location. We may never know but we can still enjoy manipulating the data to see what works.

 

Martin and Doug
I am impressed with your analyses and your depth of knowledge. Thanks for sharing this. I think I get it.

 

I have just added and AVG II C, CERER FRVG from the same die pair as the example illustrated by Doug above. The obverse die break is slightly more advanced on my example.



I already had an AVG II C, CERER FRVG but my other example comes from a different pair of dies. With this particular series I am attempting to gather as many dies as possible to try and perform what limited analysis as I can on this series.

My other example.



Martin