Heritage Roman Pickups - Two Æ follis

If 3rd party grading increases the collector base, do you see a benefit?

 

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they did come from a hoard.......

 

no, not if they are slabbed.... its certainly not for me anyway.

 

i would then ask what the average value per coin is in the collection. I would dread buying a 5000 coin raw unless pedigreed.

 

I'm in complete agreement with this. My remarks only concerned common coins available at low prices. If I were to spend $5000 on a coin I would absolutely want it verified by David Vagi, or David Sear, or CNG, or a handful of other professionals I can think of.

 

I agree with this sentiment; however, there are no $5000 coins in my collection. I collect Ancients for the pure joy of owning a piece of history and art. I have no real idea, but I would guess that the average cost of the 625 coins in my collection is less than $100 each. I see no benefit to slabbing these coins at the rate of $35 each. For the few coins I own that cost me more than $500, I would consider third party validation w/o the slab just for the peace of mind.

 

You know what's funny? I'm most interested in Levantine bronze, which even under the best circumstances is pretty decrepit. Even if I doubled or tripled my expenditure on individual coins, I would end up buying for rarity instead of looks. My collection would probably look much the same as it does now - worn and crusty.

 

My rule of thumb for US coins was that I preferred to have it in a slab if it cost over $500. Now that I've sold large chunks of my US collection, I can tell you that coins in a TPG slab are easier to move, and you get more $ for a coin of the same grade.

I'm a relative noob to ancients, I've been collecting them for just under two years. Something in me really doesn't like the idea of ancients in a slab, despite the points that Zohar brings up, which are all good points.
The tactile feel of that ancient piece of metal in my hand as I wonder who touched those same surfaces centuries ago is a part of the appeal of collecting ancients to me.

In the end, like anything else, the decision comes down to the individual collector. I'm slowly starting to spend more per coin on ancients as I build my knowledge base, I think if I were to get to a point where I'm spending over $1000 on a coin, I might like the peace of mind that comes with third party authentication.

Of course another way to shield oneself from fraud is to buy from a reputable dealer who guarantees his coins. From my limited experience, it seems like the ancient collecting community is smaller, and more tightly knit than that of US coins. A dealer cheats someone at his own risk.

 

I agree that an expert opinion with high value coins is essential if you are unsure of the seller, my comments refer to the slabbing aspect only. Like Bing, I have a few high value coins, but if seeking high value coins which I had not bought from the finder/source, which I am lucky enough to have access to, then I'd seek advice on some coins.

 

just as an addendum......... I have found 67 bronze Roman coins with my metal detector in the past 4 months....7 medieval hammered silver coins and 1 silver Roman siliquae and 1 silver Saxon sceat. If i sell them as genuine and with provenance, who believes me?? probably noone until they have been through the hands of an auctioneer, or dealer, with much more experience than I. I have sold coins for a few years and will be selling many hundreds in the next month or so, but even though they have all been bought from the finders in the UK, direct, it will still be the case that buyers question the authenticity of the pieces....

 

Interesting conversation. But I gree completely with...

 

Certainly not. In the long run, it will not increase the collector base but bring in only those buyers I really do not want in the hobby. I see the practice destructive to the hobby because the people it will draw are mostly investor minded or not willing to put the minimal study into the matter needed to buy a $25 raw so they prefer to pay $100 for one in a slab. I also fear the backlash that will come when some of these people decide to sell their $100 purchases but find that many dealers will not return their investment in plastic so they will pay only the $10 they would ordinarily pay for a coin they would sell for $25. These people will feel cheated and decide the hobby is full of crooks.

Another matter is that while David Vagi is an expert in coins, he is not the greatest expert I know. There is no single, infallible expert in all fields. There are people on this list whose opinion I would value more highly on certain coins. I would rather pay a top notch dealer I trust for the coin they sell with a 100% lifetime guarantee (find it is a fake and I'll return your money). Everybody makes an occasional mistake. If I buy a mistake from CNG, Harlan Berk or Barry Murphy (one of many VCoins dealers and a person I trust fully), I will expect them to make it right. If NCG makes an error do I even get my $35 back? I have much less a problem with coins certified by David Sear since he does not encapsulate coins but leaves them so I can see, photograph and examine details (edge in particular) if a question later arises. He sells his opinion but does not lessen the coin in the process.

 

I respectfully disagree. Firstly, as stated, I wouldn't do this for a $25 coin. However, for pricier coins, I see nothing wrong with a 3rd party opinion. People like myself that migrate over from traditional modern US/World coinage and do not understand the grading scale will be easy bait for many problematic coins. I don't think that such collectors are the ones you do not want in the hobby as they only expand their collecting focus. They are not investors per se, yet may park significant funds over time in ancients. The easier it is for them to get in, the broader the collector base. Example - A leading ancient dealer in the Midwest has most of his coins listed as "Mint State" and if you look at Vcoins grading varies by dealer. Vagi at least doesn't have direct financial gain from the coin. I prefer a 3rd party opinion rather than a dealer's opinion. I also don't mind the plastic.

I sense resistance in general to the plastic element. That I can understand. One can get a photograde or take the risk of purchase and resale, especially for pricier coins. That is a choice, yet in my view, one is not better than the other.

 

What I fear is being missed is the fact that every coin with the same grade letters and numbers will not be worth the same price. There will be coins fairly called MS 5+5 that will sell for less than an AU 5+5 or MS 5+4 under some circumstances that will vary from type to type. Collectors who only buy the MS 5+5 level will not be bothered by this as much as will those who also consider VF 4+4 etc, coins but there are many types that do not exist in high grades (let alone perfection levels) and where the price is more influenced by a factor other than grade. For example:

The dealer I bought this from had two of the exact type and mint. The other was being sold for exactly four times what he asked for this but it had exactly the same degree of uneven striking in the opposite direction so the reverse figure was missing her head but had the full mintmark. Both could be said to have a 2 or 3 out of 5 rating for strike but that seller believed the other was worth 4 times this one. I have to wonder what he would have wanted for a 5/5. This is the sort of coin that would not be collected by the slab fans. Slabbed or not, how are they to know whether this is a $10 coin or a $100 coin unless they are dealing with a trusted dealer. I have no idea what grade NGC would assign to these two coins (same or different) or how those grades would guide a buyer who might not even realize that this coin is missing something at least one knowledgeable dealer considered 4x as important as the other which had no head on the reverse figure. The easy answer is don't collect types not available in MS 5+5. In that way, perhaps slabs would be a good answer.

 

I fully agree with you. I have noticed the subtleties when compared with machine made coinage where coins tend to be more systematic in style and grading. The NGC ancient numbering system on its own doesn't capture the nuance at all. I guess the "Choice" or "Star" and "Fine Style" notations help pointing out the relative qualitative edge but at the end of the day, nothing replaces one's "emotional" response to the coin, extensive research as well as simply looking at as many coins as you can to understand the variables driving relative value. The plastic is just another data point. This forum has been great for such education.

 

When I wrote my grading pages I started to propose a two number system (0 through 9) rating the quality of the coin in terms of the Conditions of Manufacturer and the Condition of Preservation but decided that it was still not something that the world could handle since it is simply impossible to rate and compare a coin which has problems with centering with one which has a problem because of ghosting due to a thin flan. I decided it was better just to add words to describe good and bad points but such complexity does not fit on a tiny label and does not dictate whether one should prefer one coin over another. My COM is rather like the current 'Strike' and COP is a bit like 'Surface' but the two put more emphasis on when a coin gained its faults. Modern coins use 'Post Mint Damage' for COP since all coins are assumed to have left the mint in MS 60+ (the expansion of higher numbers to consider strike factors is a more recent development). I followed the then prevailing system that did not apply MS or even AU to ancients although I admit that there are a few coins that seem better than just EF. If anyone has not seen it, my 1997 Grading Pages are here:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/grade.html

 

This thread provides a wonderful discussion and analysis of the slab vs raw ancient coin conundrum. Thanks for giving all at CT a good read.

Another issue we all face is exactly how we can store, display, and enjoy our ancient coins when the collection consists of both raw & certified examples. Someone here once said that when they buy a raw coin it remains raw in their collection and when they buy a slab it remains in the slab. I have adopted the same approach & now keep my coins in either a 2x2 holder or in the slab that the coin was purchased. "Eagle" makes 3-ring plastic pages that will hold essentially all the different slab types. These Eagle brand pages can be used in the same 3-ring binders as conventional 20 pocket 2x2 pages. Using both these 3-ring pages allows me to display all the coins together.

I kind-a sort-a regret removing some ancient coins from their tombs over the last 2-years just to make those few coins fit in my raw collection. Now if I buy an ancient in a slab, it will probably stay in the slab. I think the slab can make the coin more liquid and that will be a plus for the person that someday inherits my coins. Who knows, I may someday want to sell one myself & the slab (if intact) could make that easier.

This photo depicts an Eagle brand 3-ring binder page:

 

Please zoom in to images !

 

I get the same feeling when I see slabbed coins that I get when I see a tiger pacing its cage in a zoo......
Look at the sad coins just wanting to be held in hand ....... thats after all why they were made in the first place. Patina is something which develops over time and I suppose the encapsulation must interfere with the natural oxidisation process and slow or halt it to some degree?. I know of a seller who cleans coins in a 'vigorous' manner and then leaves them for a year or two outside in the wind, rain and sun to gently tone them, rather than using sommething nasty..... he insists that the change, whilst subtle, does leave them much more pleasing to the eye.
If we are all still about in 1000 years and collecting coins, will slabbed coins be less desirable because they have been deprived of the additional toning they will have received if raw?? It may one day be a selling point..... ie. 'this coin has never been slabbed' natural patina...who knows.

 

YOC - your point is well taken. However, would you buy a $10,000 raw to be able to touch it and let it tone? I say the compromise is getting a photo grading certification which allows you to encapsulate when its time to sell.