Toned 1901 penny: why does it not look toned in real life?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by bugo, Sep 16, 2014.

  1. bugo

    bugo Well-Known Member

    I recently purchased this 1901 Indian head cent from ebay. As you can see, in the seller's pictures, it shows a lot of colorful toning. In my pictures it looks like a typical reddish-brown penny. My pictures more accurately depict how the coin actually looks. The seller said that they didn't realize the toning was there until after they took the pictures. My question is: why did the toning show up in their pictures but not mine? Is there a special filter you can use to bring out toning? I only gave a buck fiddy for it so it's not a big deal and it's still an attractive coin and I'm happy with it. I'm not good at all at taking coin pictures and I certainly don't know all the tricks. Were the pictures somewhat distorted for whatever reason? In real life, Liberty looks shinier than the fields of the obverse. It isn't some sort of proof, is it?

    What would you guess the grade would be? To my unexperienced eye, I would guess an EF or an AU. There is a little bit of damage on the left side of the coin at the 9 o'clock position on the obverse but it doesn't bother me.

    Seller's pictures:

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    [​IMG]

    My pictures:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Seller's pics vs. yours are a world apart! For $1.50 I probably couldn't be bothered to send it back, but I would not be happy. I have no idea what sort of photography or photoshop tricks they used, so sorry, no answer to the question.
     
    swamp yankee likes this.
  4. Vegas Vic

    Vegas Vic Undermedicated psychiatric patient

    I would hazard a guess that it is more a lighting and camera angle issue then photoshop. I'll post some examples Wednesday to illustrate my point.
     
  5. bugo

    bugo Well-Known Member

    I'm happy with the coin, I just wondered why their picture came out the way it did. Like Jwt708 said, it's just $1.50 and it's a pretty good looking penny so I'm not going to raise a stink about it.
     
  6. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    Maybe it is glow in the dark.
     
    bugo likes this.
  7. sonlarson

    sonlarson World Silver Collector

    Background and lighting. Try it yourself. Take a photo of the coin against a white background and again with a black background. Notice the difference. Also camera settings and lighting will have an effect.
     
  8. jello_g

    jello_g Senior Member

    If you don't see toning with the coin in hand while inspecting under various lighting conditions, then there's no toning regardless of what pictures tell you. Seller's pictures look over-saturated, which may have been accidental or deceptively accidental.
     
    ldhair likes this.
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    A lot of folks seem to think that when you look at a picture of a toned coin that the coin is going to look exactly like that when you see it in hand. And yeah, it can - with "can" being the operative word. But for it to look exactly like that picture you're going to have to view it with similar lighting and from the exact same angle.

    Cameras are no different than your eyes in what they see. The difference is that cameras capture images from a given moment in time, a tiny fraction of a second. Think of it as a single frame from a video. While your eyes (actually your brain) capture more of a video clip.

    That's why things like luster, think of the cartwheel effect, and toning, cartwheel effect applies here too only with various colors, appear as they do when coins are viewed in hand.



    1911_Proof_half_crown_obv 1.jpg 1911_Proof_half_crown_rev 1.jpg 1911_Proof_half_crown_obv.jpg 1911_Proof_half_crown_rev.jpg


    Same coin, my pictures, same camera settings, no photo editing. The only difference was a tiny change in the angle between the lights, camera, and coin. That's all that is required to get such drastically different results.

    But these weren't just 2 pictures either. They picked from a group of about 50 pictures I took of the same coin, all at the same time, and all with tiny little changes in angles. Angles were the only change.

    Now honestly, I think the OP's seller's pictures had help. I don't think that coin would look that way, no matter what the angle and lighting was.
     
  10. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I agree. Changes in contrast can also give a funky look.
     
  11. RaceBannon

    RaceBannon Member

    Sometimes the difference in appearance from photo to photo is as simple as using a flash vs no flash.

    I'm amazed at how different the same coin can look when I use a flash or natural lighting myself. Add another variable as in using a different background, which can radically affect the contrast, and that could easily explain the difference in appearance of the two pics in the original post.
     
  12. jello_g

    jello_g Senior Member

    Contrast (too much or too little) can certainly alter the appearance of a coin. And flash can take contrast to an extreme, blowing out highlights for instance. What a change in contrast will not do however is change colours to an astonishing degree. That's why I believe saturation has been mismanaged in the coin in question here. Look how intense the reds and blues are to the right of the head.
     
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    There are a great many different things that not only can but will change the way a coin picture looks. That is to be expected.

    The point I was trying to make above is that even when everything else remains exactly the same, just a tiny change in angle alone can result in extreme differences.
     
  14. Hotpocket

    Hotpocket Supreme Overlord


    @GDJMSP: I guess my question would be does your coin posted above ever look toned in hand (at different lighting angles) or is it just the camera that captures the toning effect?
     
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes it looks, looked rather as I don't own any longer, exactly like both of those pictures, in hand. But only when you view it at the correct angle, and only when using the same kind of lighting I used to take those pictures.

    Now what I mean by that is this. Use a different kind of light bulb than I used, or view the coin in natural light, or any combination of light sources, and the coin will look different. Hold the coin at a different angle, and the coin will look different.

    Every little thing matters, every tiny change matters, anything different matters, in how the coin will look when viewed with a camera, or in hand.

    edit - the thing you have to remember about pictures is that person who took that picture and is showing it to you, is only showing you what they want you to see. They are showing you the picture that lets you see the coin in what they consider to be "its most flattering aspect". They do this when they are just sharing pictures, or when they are trying to sell coins. It's human nature. They want you to see that coin looking as good as it possibly can.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
  16. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    also, the seller's pictures show an ugly coin.
     
  17. carboni7e

    carboni7e aka MonsterCoinz

    seller's photos were juiced.
     
  18. risk_reward

    risk_reward Active Member

    Fine details. You'd think with as harshly as they cleaned it, they would have taken the verdigris off.
     
  19. bugo

    bugo Well-Known Member

    You owned this coin?
     
  20. bugo

    bugo Well-Known Member

    Meh, I like it. I don't care what you think.
     
  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes, I did. And the rest of the original 10 piece Proof set that went with it ;)
     
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