We are selling a lot of Indian Head cents for a client and many of them, although the details have worn to VG or G have a lot of red in their surface. To me, that indicates that they have been cleaned. My question: Is it possible for a copper coin to retain any of its original luster while still having circulated details. There aren't blatant signs of cleaning (hairlines, etc.) which is why I'm asking. I think they also may have been cleaned a very long time ago and then sealed in their holders which may have retarded natural toning. Any opinion would be welcome. Of course, my client did not admit to cleaning any of them and I'm pretty sure that most of these have been in his collection since he was very young.
I do not believe it is physically possible for a copper coin to be worn to the point of being a G or VG and still be red - even partially red or have any luster at all. Don't be fooled into thinking that red equals luster. It does not. It is my opinion that these coins have indeed been cleaned, possibly long ago as you say. But I think it more likely that they have been cleaned recently. There are ways to clean a copper coin without leaving telltale scratches & hairlines. Dipping the coin in any of a number of substances will remove the natural brown tone and the coin will appear red. But the question is - how long will it stay that way ? Usually not very. Copper is perhaps the most reactive of coinage metals. Unless it is stored in an airtight holder or container or under perfect conditions - it is going to tone. That is what makes me think these coins have been cleaned recently rather than long ago. But one way or the other - they HAVE been cleaned if they are G or VG. Were I you - I would seriously consider if I wanted to sell these coins.
GD, Thanks for confirming what I already knew. I think they were cleaned a long time ago but the ones that appear "red" were in sealed 2x2's and also inserted in pocket protectors. I think that prevented the air from getting to them. The sad thing is, some of them are attractive since they are not overly bright. Right now, I'm putting all of them in a box as I come across them and I'll probably sell them in one lot as cleaned and good as a starter set for a child and price them at bare minimum. This is definitely one of the drawbacks of selling on consignment. Fortunately, there are a lot that are definitely natural. I think as he got older while he was collecting, he realized that cleaning the coins wasn't such a great idea. Better late than never, I guess.
As a life-long small cent collector, I'll go ahead and "pile on" here -- I don't think I've ever seen natural mint red -- even a trace of it -- on coins graded below XF. I've seen slight traces of original red in protected areas of coins I'd grade XF, but for older copper, usually you won't see any red until you get up to AU.
Thanks, Ziggy. I never have either. But I wanted to give my client the benefit of the doubt until I heard some confirmation. BTW, missed you the last couple of days. Glad you're back.
I must add my two red cents... Copper is indeed a very reactive metal and rarely is it found in a state of "red-orange" luster. For instance, copper reacts easily with sulfur to form copper sulfate...which is dark in color. It is a problem here in Florida (shallow wells and springs are loaded with sulphur) because many cheap dentists use copper-loaded dental alloys (at the expense of gold) which initially look great, but a year later their patients return and ask why their "gold" crown turned black. Also, sulphur gases are present in the air we breathe so much that some areas smell like rotten eggs...thanks to sulphur. Copper also easily oxidizes which is also dark in color. Silver does not oxidize, it tarnishes. Metals that don't oxidize or tarnish are called Noble metals. Metals like gold, palladium and platinum are examples of Noble metals which neither tarnish nor oxidize. So...the chance of finding a copper below AU conditions with luster is 99.99% likely of cleaning and/or dipping. So much for the class on metalurgy.
You can dip any copper coin (cerculated or not) in a substance like Jeweluster and it will appear "red". But it will have that "washed out" appearance which is easy to tell compared with a mint red cent. But, no surprise, there are numerous copper coins on Ebay which have that washed out appearance and are described as being "red". You can find some good examples from Ebay seller "ernie".
Going through ultimatley at least 5 thousand wheat cents every couple of months from various dealers, as well as being a cashier, and going through 2 to 3 rolls of pennys per day, a wheat cent in the 50's grading VF can still have some red to them, I haven't seen anyfull blown red ones yet, but, i'm sure anything is possible without the application of cleaning, many coins from the 60's that I find in the register still have at least 50% red to them, and I wouldn't grade them any better than XF, I do believe that any coin grading G or VG will not have any red to them whatsoever, otherwise they have been cleaned.
Keeping in mind that I am now sure that the Indians I have have been cleaned at some point and they will be sold as such, I have a question about the seller's auctions that you directed me to. I definitely see the washed-out appearance in many of his BU RD cents. Is it possible that the coins appear washed out because of the picture quality? We had a heck of a time getting our pictures to the point where you can see the luster and the details. Before that, we were sacrificing the luster in the pictures for detail. Just asking.
On some European boards I have read about several electrochemical methods of cleaning Like you spit on boths sides of the coin ; you wrap it in aluminium foil and then slightly rub the foil for 60 seconds The enzimes in the saliva give an electrochemical reaction between the coin and the aluminium generating heat Afterwards wash in distilled water This will only work on materials more noble then aluminium otherwise you will oxydise the coin instead of de oxydising it And since I graduated 33 years ago I do not remember the electrochemical hyrarchy of metals but if it works it should work on silver
When you decide to sell. I'd be very interested. Cleaning was fairly normal for circulated coins in the 50s and 60s. Many coins even into the 70s received what was known as "thumbing" - a brisk rub between the thumb and first finger. It removed a lot of dirt and spots. I've watched dealers do this at their shops and at shows. The fact that Indian Head Cents may have been cleaned earlier in their life only makes them fit better in one of the exhibits I'm putting together. Specifically for 1907 IHCs. Not too long ago David Bowers had a note in one of his columns quoting another dealer who stated that some large percentage of all circulated coins beyond xx years old had probably been cleaned at some time in their life. I believe it.
It's possible, but if you look at pics of true "red" large cents, you will see the difference. That seller also has a reputation for overgrading, but overgrading consistently. I've been trying to find a nice red or red brown coronet large cent and coronet half cent (MS 63 or so), and I get depressed when I do an Ebay search and 60% of the hits are the "ernie" coins. I'll probably need to venture into a Hertiage auction or a coin show to find what I want. Also, if you do a search on the CU forum you will find some useful info -- probably more than you need to know.
