When Does The Self-Policing Of This Coin-Collecting Hobby Begin?

Greetings,

When Does The Self-Policing Of This Coin-Collecting Hobby Begin?

Looking for opinions and suggestions involving a matter of a counterfeit coin purchase.

Background. Somewhat immaterial to the issue, I purchased an 1800 Large Copper Half Cent that seemed right at the time and was assured by the seller that the coin was indeed genuine. Subsequently through research, I find that such a coin is available through different sources completely without any stamped indication of its being artificially fabricated. Web sites provide these coins as "fillers" to help collectors "fill" holes in their collections because obtaining a real coin to be cost prohibitive....how noble. The coin is a phony!

Moving Forward. If I cannot have my money returned by this ANA registered seller/dealer, do I have any recourse via ANA to have him identified to “somewhat do my part” from removing this person from the coin marketplace to continue his fraudulent trade? Anyone ever take on this type of action?

Conjecture. I fully realize the risk of painstaking frustration of a possible “finger-pointing” exercise, possible legal issues associated with false accusation, and the extra time and effort involved, but with all this said, I do question: When Does The Policing Of Coin Collecting Hobby Begin? Otherwise, are we all just content to say: Be Careful, We All Learn By Mistakes, Don’t Buy From Unregistered Sellers, Don’t Trust eBay, Buy Only Encapsulated Coins, Never Buy At Flea Markets, Don’t Trust China, and the list could go on.

Seems to me that with if I take a “head-in-the-sand” attitude, complain that others should do it, or accept the lack of “policing” and enforcement; such apathy gives known fraudsters a free reign, perpetuates an unchecked environment and opportunity for others to “cash in” on counterfeit coins and other fraudulent activity, and creates a “once burnt” syndrome to cause “would-be new coin collectors” to turn to a less "caveat emptor (let the buyer beware)" hobby. Sorry for my own rambling, but I alone with this thinking? Thanks in advance.

Your opinions, thoughts, suggestions are warmly welcome.

 

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Since the dealer who sold you the coin is a member of the ANA, he/she is required to give you a refund, provided that you can prove that the coin is a fake. Have you contacted the seller about this? If the seller refuses to give you a refund, then your only recourse would be to file a complaint with the ANA.

Of course, it would be to your benefit to advise the seller (should he/she refuse) that you intend to take this action to give the seller every opportunity to make good on the transaction if all else fails. I don't recommend that you begin by threatening the seller with this action because that will often do more harm than good. Try to negotiate, first.

Chris

 

I would agree Ebay will be more immediate results. However, do not give up on the ANA. Do you know, though, he is really an ANA dealer? Anyone can claim that. I do see names of dealers with their ANA membership revoked in nearly every issue of the ANA, so they do take such complaints serious, as does PNG.

OP, I wish I could do more, I wish our hobby could do more, to "self police". Its just that we have no authority to do so. Heck, collectors are so powerless, we cannot even get our certification companies to use the official ANA grading guidelines. They make up their own.

 

Did you talk to the dealer, get his angle on it?

 

Maybe irrelevant, but pictures of the fake?

 

Like the others, I think the first thing to do is contact the seller. If that gets you nowhere...take the next step. If you bought his coin on eBay...I would contact them.

If that doesn't work, you could try the ANA...although my faith in them is limited. Another option is contact the local police (this is obviously a last resort). Selling a fake item claiming it is real...is illegal in most areas.

But, start with the dealer first. Also...if you could post photos of the coin I'd be interested to see the quality of the fake.

 

Too true.

You did not mention contacting the dealer.

Did you?
And they rejected your claim?

Also, what makes you believe it is a fake?
Since it isn't marked, did you submit it to a reputable TPG'er?

I would depend on PCGS, NGC & ANACS for says that it is a fake.

Possibly ICG.

 

Another option is post photos of the coin here. There are a lot of experts here on CT and perhaps someone can identify the piece.

 

Chris,
I thank you and all the others who replied as this was the intent to see how many out there are thinking like me. Yes, I will approach the dealer/seller and confront him with the details and will hope all will be settled in one easy step. The purpose of the post was to see if others had any other approach as I believe it is absolutely necessary for individuals to speak out and learn from all how to get the best results from an unfortunate matter. The sale was conducted at a flea market so the eBay issue is out as eBay does provide some governance to keep the peace between buyers and sellers. And, we can all hope that just the human decency would suffice in approaching another to ask for money to be returned. In this case, I am not certain the seller will be honest. In truth, I wanted to sell this coin on eBay and started to research and found the problem and unfortunately the coin was purchased about 3 months ago and I am unsure this person will show up at the same flea market. Fact of the matter is that I did not immediately research the coin as soon as possible and yes, this would be a lesson to me, but my venom comes out in why we have to be so on guard and never take our eye off the ball. Why do we have to take on every possible new purchase with a bit of distrust?
Ok, again thanks to all, I will attempt to contact this individual and ask for funds to be returned; and yes, my followup will be a cautious approach to ANA.

I am pleased to receive all these suggestions/opinions....it gives hope for the survival of this interesting and fantastic hobby.

P.S. For grins, I am posting the 1800 Large Copper Half Cent to close this discussion. Note the REVERSE is Style 2 that came to be with the minting of the 1802 Half Cent. Yes, if I was "on my game," I would have passed on the purchase and I would not have taken others time to comment; but again, many, many thanks.

 

This purchase of yours is exactly why you have to be on guard. I am not sure who you expect to "self-police" this hobby. Honestly - I am not sure what you are asking. There is just no way to stop flea market(or bottom feeders) sellers like this. Ebay just made it tougher to report fakes - some like the move and others don't. There are bottom feeders in every hobby that prey on the unsuspecting. That is why people always say read before buying - you just have to do some of the work(or homework) yourself. I am sorry you had this problem, but there are a lot of people(just on this forum) that are doing all they can to educate and alert collectors.

I think one of the things that gets me is that posters complain about the prices of some of the well established better dealers. Well - use them and there is a good chance you won't run into this situation to start with. Pay a little extra for their expertise and knowledge. And if you have an issue they will gladly work with you.

 

Did you make this purchase with a credit card?
http://www.bankrate.com/financing/credit-cards/purchase-protection-from-a-credit-card/

 

This.

Let's face it, there are fakes and bad dealers in every collectible field. If you think fakes are bad in ancients, look into the antiquities field. So, we are not alone or worst than other areas. The key has been, and always will be, knowledge. Its very hard for a truly knowledgable collector to get taken. Short of having that knowledge, use others knowledge, like a good dealer like Mark mentions. They are knowledgable, and will stand behind their products. A TPG slab is the same effectively as buying from a good dealer.

 

Welcome to the forum! There are some 'dealers'/sellers who are completely trustworthy just as there are 'buyers' who are, but that said there are those ( even on the forum ) that I would not buy or sell with, as they are not ethical for my dealings. You can't go by self applied titles of a big buyer, big dealer, expert, etc. It takes a while to determine if Joe X is what he says or not. Read the threads, and you will see, that many have their own idea of what is right and ethical. If you buy again on the street, take a phone photo of the guy holding the coin before you buy it. It will refresh their memory significantly if a problem comes up. Many see coin dealing as a fun money making hobby, but know very little about the coin market and coins themselves. There are experts on this forum , and there are wantabees, and most likely you will be very safe with the former. The latter may mean well, but may create problems for yourself. Take some time to read and learn before your next buy, unless it is reference material such as more coin books or PCGS/NGC authenticated coins.

Jim

 

I am a life member of the ANA and I sell/ buy coins and other things at various flea markets and have been doing so part time for nearly 30 years. I do NOT sell fakes, the four I do possess are not for sale at any price. I show them to people so they can see what to look for at other flea market vendors selling these types of coins. My cases are clean well organized and professional looking unlike most other flea market sellers. All of my coins are labeled and priced where the shopper can clearly see what the coins and how much I am asking for it.

I have a small number of regular customers who are fairly knowledgeable about the types of coins they collect who know that I will stand behind everything I sell and l give freely any information about the coins I sell to those who are not so knowledgeable.

My buy prices are in line with the coin shops in the area, I do not low ball anyone as to me that is stealing.

I do know that I am in the minority, probably in the 2% range, when it comes to honest flea market coin dealers so do not automatically assume all flea market coin dealers are crooks you just might run into another guy like me you can do business with.

 

I believe you'll find that legislation in your state will allow individuals and government to correct some of the problems which have transpired in a self-proclaimed 10 figure dollar amount industry, where applied objective "standards" are seemingly in conflict with those of published documents. This legislation when applied by government agencies, and civil actions testing the values of damages guaranteed, relative to published values of worth, may result in industry changes.

A case in point was that I received an unsolicited offer from a Director, Senior Numismatist. thus: "A representative will be in the area. Thinking of selling $25,000 or more in total value, we can meet with you at your home or bank."

An itemized list of 35 .4839 Oz. Gold NGC and PCGS Eagles, 28 different dates/grades, ~85% MS61 or greater certified, the remainder AU/MS60 was promptly submitted for sale to the firm at a local bank. Current raw "Grey Sheet Bid" values total exceeded the $25000 stated requirement for a personal evaluation by the firms representative.

A response was received: "These coins are common. We would purchase outright. You need to ship the coins to us for an offer."

Lesser coins of some listed were in auction archives, seemingly sold damaged, without grades, and in lower tier TPG holders.

I submitted a counteroffer to purchase a 6 figure dollar amount at "Grey Sheet Bid", "sight unseen". The coins were to be delivered by their representative, for exchange at a local bank, with my funds being transfered in any manner desired. They did not schedule a meeting as initially seemingly promised, nor was a response returned from the contacting representative.

It appears only independent investigation or adjudication can determine possible civil or criminal actions, values, and possible damages/fines.

Without the statutes generated, collector protection doesn't appear otherwise available.

JMHO

 

"When Does The Self-Policing Of This Coin-Collecting Hobby Begin?"


IF, your seller is in fact a member of the ANA then file a complaint with them. You will have to get his "real" name at the very minimum and/or the entity (store) which he represents.

You'll also have to "prove" that he said the coin was the real deal and this is where it gets tricky.

You may have been ripped off and you may be in possession of an actual counterfeit coin, but "proving" that the dealer lied to you about its authenticity could be very difficult.

Perhaps the best method would be making a public statement about how he told you the coin was authentic in an attempt to embarrass him. But, be ready for legal repercussions.