Hello there, I'm curious, I bought this thaler from a German auction house some time ago with a particular grade and condition, which i completely agreed with and is in line with my knowledge base in relation to German state thalers. Now a few years later I sent it to a TPG and got it back with a UNC designation and cleaned - something I don't agree with. I'm usually able to discern a cleaned coin, but not being a "professional" I make the occasional mistake. Please help me see where and how this coin has been cleaned? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks!
wow cool coin. not sure how they could tell it was a cleaned coin. maybe the coin sniffer machine smelt strange chemicals on it ??? thanks for posting it.
From what I can see, I agree with the TPG's assessment that your coin has been cleaned (hairlines under and in front of the chin). However, I don't believe that the coin should have been "body bagged", as many European collectors think that cleaning coins is actually good, which has made for an increased population of cleaned coins from Europe, and especially Germany. Usually, instead of no-grading cleaned German coins I see TPG's net grade, usually to 61 or 62. I think your coin looks too nice to be net graded to a 62, so the graders decided to no-grade it as apposed to netting the grade down 2 or 3 points. That's just my opinion on the matter. I think that is a very nice coin which has been cleaned a long time ago, but retoned nicely.
Yeah, it's got European hairlines. Someone tried checking if they can clean off the lovely toning. Typical mistake in that part of the world. They still clean their coins, along with their silverware, every Sunday. It's a shame, coin had serious potential. Still looks nice, but is now, forever, partly cleaned.
@torontokuba There are a lot of cleaned US coin either ....it' s no german problem at all. My coins are in original uncleaned condition......especially my collection of pre 1871 pieces.
... and who colonized the US or emigrated to the US? I reaffirm, that cleaning coins is a major European problem (not just a German problem). There are plenty of old European habits and traditions among the US population.
OK I see and understand.... but don't believe every housewife is cleaning her silverware all day long as she does with old Thalers.
Naturally, the raised areas of a coin (effigy, legend, etc.) would be the first places that show wear, dings, scratches and so on. In this case, it is evident that someone went out of their way to practice wiping the deeper set, flat areas of the coin. Naturally, for those lines to exist, the coin should be in VF or lesser condition. It would be heavily circulated. Someone tried cleaning the background. Maybe there are many more hairlines on the coin, that do not show up on these photos. Look under light and change the angle as you stare at the coin. The light should expose all parallel sets of hairlines, probably going in various directions across the surface. Better luck with your next purchase.
Thank you to all. Great comments and effort. Much appreciated. I personally feel that by not being an American (US) I have difficulty understanding the almost puritanical view in relation to cleaned coins. Please don't take offence to the previous sentence, as this exactly view is very useful in many areas. It is just that I have a lot of difficulty in believing that one, silver coins over time don't darken in tone, and two, that there are many coins - in the UNC range of German state thalers and their fractionals that have never been touched. I have seen coins that have been slabbed with dubious toning and suspicious marks. I was simply a little disappointed to get this one back as such. All the same I love this coin, because in this state of preservation it is actually hard to find. Recently I sent a batch of coins and some with scratches came back with the same grade as some that were obviously superior. I perhaps have a few issues with the consistency of TPGS. Thanks again for the help - it is important for me to understand the underlying premise of why it wasn't graded and I think I managed to get that from your responses. Roman
You should try to focus on keeping various concepts separate. Hairlines from some uninformed individual's cloth, is most likely what got you the "Details" grade. It wasn't the toning or touching that sealed the fate of your coin. A coin can be toned, felt up and smudged by contact with skin oils and sweat. It's not until an individual (more often than not of European traditions ) decides to wipe the surface, that the mint frosting or luster is destroyed forever. All that is needed for future improvement, is the separation of the methodical attention to detail, from the obsessive-compulsive cleaning disorder and Bob's your uncle. As far as the puritanical approach is concerned, there is always the option for you to use one of the local TPG services available in Europe. They understand your approach and cater to their client's wants. Cleaned coins get real grades, everyone is happy.
I was distracted while writing and I heaped several concepts together. Thanks again for the input. "They understand your approach" -- I adore the Sheldon scale and TPGs exacting criteria in grading coins. And I'm actually trying to make the transition to TPG grading, however i see that it is far from being as exact as it makes out and it's leaving me a little disappointed. I'm expressing perhaps several overlapping concepts under an umbrella. This may not be getting through. Italian's have a more redundant, polemical form of thinking that may affect my sentence structure and what I'm trying to get across.
