Hi, guys i recently picked up a proof quarter thats in a PCGS 70 holder but has major spotts downgrading it in my opinion. I would like to submit the coin as a Guaranty Resubmission but i do not understand how it works, do they actually buy the coin from you or just refund the submission fees. Thanks for any advise!
from pcgs website. http://www.pcgs.com/guarantee.html "Further, this guarantee shall not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to certification, including spotting on modern silver coins."
I think it's their way of saying that their slabs are not air tight and thus do not prevent toning or spotting.
It really makes you think, once a coin is graded and there is damage that is going On inside due to the envirement would really like to know how that works exactly
It's the same "damage" that is going on to raw coins. People seem to forget that slabbed coins are not air tight. Coins in slabs are susceptible to the environment just like a raw coin. Sure, the slab might offer some protection...but it's not absolute protection. If they are not stored properly, then they will react with the environment. The TPGs guarantee excludes this simply because it is beyond their control...why should they pay for something that is not their fault.
Thanks for the reply on that Sounds kind of raw to me ...... you have a simlar situation where you have a highly Graded coin and then it loses value inside the slab and noticeable to the naked eye The value drops, looks like the TPG,S need to come up with a better mouse trap!
I think it's a cost issue too. There really aren't any holders that offer absolute protection. I know the Intercept Shield inserts are about the best thing on the market...but they are supposed to be changed at a particular interval (10 years I think). A slab that needs to have a lining changed wouldn't be very practical. So, what they would need to do is invent a holder that offers a completely inert/protecting insert that lasts forever...which is something that does not exist. So, there would be significant R&D costs plus manufacturing costs to create such a slab. I'd imagine that would raise the cost of grading considerably...which would not be popular amongst the collecting community.
Here's the thing: the coin may have been guaranteed when you bought it, but it isn't anymore. To me that seems pretty shady to rescind a guarantee. They should have done something like "coins graded after January 1 2012 will no longer be covered". But then, you would have to be able to date a grading event- which you can't.
...and to think there are people who proclaim that a PCGS or NGC graded coin can be bought without even seeing a photo of the coin. If you want an MS65 XYZ coin, then you buy a graded example of it and you won't be disappointed. If you are, there's always the guarantee to fall back on. This thread is a great example of why that isn't necessarily true.
It's beyond their control -- right -- just like when food particles or hair or some other thing is on the coin from their grading room that then grows into a horrendous spot. I suppose that's not their fault either? I have heard many people attest that ASEs in PCGS slabs spot far more than in NGC slabs. There are many theories, but lots of people think it is because PCGS dips ASEs before slabbing them, and improperly rinses them. Whatever PCGS does to ASEs before slabbing, they certainly spot at a much higher rate than NGC slabbed ASEs. The OP didn't specify if the coin in question was silver or not. It could very well be a clad PF70 quarter, correct?
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the coin turning due to environmental exposures after it has been slabbed. The coin is not totally protected from the environment in the slab. I highly doubt any of the turning that is being seen is due to some kind of "contamination" during the 30 seconds the coin is graded.
The "REAL" problem are contaminants which might be on the surface of the coin due to skin, spittle, dust, or even the rinse the US Mint uses for the planchets prior to striking. The "slabbed" environment, while not air tight in the truest sense is as air tight as you can get without sealing the coin in a vacuum environment. "Air" or "Gas" does not flow freely over the surface of the coin. However, since "air" or "gas" is not sucked out of the slab while it is being sealed, that air within the slab remains there. This environment can often augment any contaminants on the coin and in some cases, actually increase the possibility of spotting. Folks do realize that a simple sneeze can send millions of "microscopic" droplets of moisture through a room. Each one of these droplets has the potential for contaminating a coins surface. The only method I know of to eliminate or reduce the possibility of spotting is to give the coin a pregrading rinse in either E-Z-Est or pure Acetone remembering that each of these needs to be clean and free of their own contaminents. I have had good success with Silver Eagles using this method. To state that the PCGS Slab is not air tight can be misleading and should actually be a qualified statement that indicates that it is NOT the same as being raw since it is in a somewhat sealed environment. What the TPG's should really do, is to have a "Clean Room" where coins are slabbed. Free of dust and a humidity controlled environment where "sealers" are required to wear "clean garments and hats similar to an operating room environment. The initial set up costs could easily be absorbed into their standard overhead costs.
It's not the same thing as being raw...however, the air that is currently within a given slab is not the same air that was in there when the slab was created. They are not air tight and thus "gas" can diffuse in and out of the slab. Yes, there is a degree or protection...far more than a raw coin, but they still get exposed to the environment.
Right. Gas can "diffuse" in and out of a slab. However, that's a rather broad definition in that the slab pieces "interlock" within each other which leaves gas "diffusion" at the absolute minimum. Coin can be subject to other extremes which can affect their surfaces such as heat which in an of itself "might" cause a certain level of "breathing" but still at an absolute minimum. Maybe I'll take on of my PCGS Silver Eagle slabs and store it in a box of strike anywhere matches in the second floor of my garage to see how the coin is affected by such an extreme environment. As for the OP, the spotting which can be observed is more than likely residual rise contaminants on the surface of the coin prior to it being slabbed. A photograph would be needed.
You might try using a 'vacuum storage bag' and vacuum the enclosed air out of the slabs and then visit a welder and blow argon into the bag and seal. Then the inside of the slab would be argon purged and in inert gas. Sealing a slab even in a clean room wouldn't be permanent as atmospheric pressure change will act like a bellows to suck in and blow out over time. Any smoking or cooking vapors from a room can be bad for coins. And except for dense slabs, metal, etc. diffusion can occur anyway, and metal slabs are hard to see through. I seem to recall that some depository sealed some moon rocks material in a safe that had argon supplied for a positive pressure and little contamination. If you have an extra safe and welding skills, it seems one could build one rather easily, although I'll take my chances with the supplied slabs
True but it doesn't matter. The guarantee exclusion said INCLUDING modern silver coins, it it didn't restrict it just to modern silver coins. All coins are covered by the exception.
To answer the OP question: We had a PCGS graded 1992-S (silver) PR68DCAM FS-101 Kennedy half dollar that had a spot in the field above TRUST that kept growing (I think someone sneezed on the coin before the plastic holder was sealed). I took the coin to the ANA show held in Boston during August 2010 and spoke with David Hall at the PCGS table about it. Mr. Hall agreed that the coin was no longer a PR68DCAM, had someone from his staff do some paperwork and kept the coin. At the time, PCGS had only graded two 1992-S DDO-001 (FS-101) silver Kennedy half dollars at PR68DCAM and three at PR69DCAM. I knew where all three of the PR69DCAM were and none of them were for sale. The two graded PR68DCAM, one was the one I had that wasn’t a PR68DCAM anymore and the other one L&C Coins had for sale at $2,000. It took awhile for PCGS to settle the “Grade Guarantee” issue on this coin. PCGS offered to send the coin back to me in a PR65DCAM holder plus a check for $300. I told PCGS that I would rather have the coin replaced and that I wasn’t interested in owning one graded PR65DCAM. I was able to talk L&C to take 10% off his asking price and eat postage and insurance. I told David Hall this and he sent me a check for $1,800.00 plus apologized for taking so long to settle the matter. https://www.pcgs.com/Membership/order.html?OrderNo=20428600&Year=2010 Yes, it took 19 months for PCGS to settle the “Grade Guarantee” on this particular issue but they did take care of it to my satisfaction in the end.
