Possible NGC Grading Error - Recommendations?

I don't know the answer to this. How do I find out?

 

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I would look in the NGC census and see if they are listed.

 

No proofs.

 

So, that might mean that NGC considers all these medals to be business strikes. How many business strikes did they have listed?

 

Are we looking at the right coin? I am an NGC member and when I looked up the coin I dont see any census data.

 

I'm not a member so I can't check it...that is why I suggested it. Another option is you could call NGC.

 

Ok, I went in through the world price guide section and it didnt show any population data. Thanks wcoins, this is great.

So either 1) NGC has not graded any submitted proofs, 2) NGC does not recognize proofs in this coins, or 3) there were no proofs struck.

Odd that ANACS recognized a Proof and NGC doesn't.

Oh well, thanks for all of the help. Kind of perturbed at the dealer, he has another for sale right now as "proof" and I think that's misleading with no documentation to back it up.

 

Based on what we have seen in this thread...it seems that there is not a consensus among the hobby if these medals are business strikes or proofs. Some references seem to say proof and others seem to say business strikes. Perhaps the dealer thinks they are proofs because of the documentation he has seen. I doubt he is trying to be misleading. There is no reason to do so as we have not been able to establish there are two different types and thus stating it is a proof does not affect it's value.

 

The dealer is reputable, and I do not believe he is intentionally being misleading. But I also believe that, in general, proof strikes carry a premium on most coins because of the quality of the strike, and because the are produced in smaller numbers than the business strikes. So calling a coin a "proof" tends to skew the sale price in favor of the seller (not the buyer). That's why I said I was perturbed.

By the way Camaro, you know the dealer. But I have purposely left the dealer's name out of this thread - did not think it would be fair to list the name. Again, not accusing anyone of wrongdoing.

 

It doesn't mean it's not a proof just because NGC thinks so. NGC is a great company but it ain't perfect. I've disagreed with their grading many times, especially with foreign coins. If you bought it 'cause you like it, keep it. If you bought it 'cause it was advertised as proof and you thought you can make a profit on it once it received a PF designation...well in that case you could return it and lose the cost of grading. I don't think this is dealer's fault.

 

Lets be honest here, the problem is that many people (this dealer included) don't know what a proof is. They are just looking at the coin and if it meets "their" description of a proof, then it must be a proof.

Hotpocket, based on your description of the coin, it appears that the coin has nicely frosted devices and a mirrored background....all of this is hard to gauge from your pics, but I take your word on it since the coin is in your hand and pics don't tell the whole story. This description by itself screams proof, but most of us know this is not the case. Using one of my own coins for an example, I have a superb 1967 Kennedy half that would make any uneducated person thump on their bible and scream that it is a proof. Well, we all know the mint did not make proofs from 65-67, but some early strikes had superb cameos and a deep mirror background. To an uneducated "dealer" (and we all know they are out there) they would argue that this is a proof and to an uneducated buyer, they would buy it as such. This whole story sounds like this is what happened. There is no documentation that any proofs were produced but you have both a "reputable" TPG and a "reputable" dealer both saying this is a proof. I have many coins where NGC has labeled one a proof and the same coin as an unc. I also have coins that NGC has labeled one as a UNC and the very same coin as a Matte Proof. I wish we still had that head banging emoticon!

 

No, I was not planning on making a profit on the designation, but I guess I was just surprised that it didn't come back as a proof when I was told it was. Again, this isn't about the money for me, just the principle of it. I do plan to keep the coin.

I agree with your assessment. The dealer honestly thought it was a proof. But since I cannot find any documentation specifically stating that proofs were struck, I have to go with the presumption that they were not.

 

It's not necessarily the case that proofs are worth more. Yes, they are lower mintage but even with german coins that doesn't mean greats value.

Now, if the dealer is who I think it is...he is one of the most respected dealers of german coins/medals in this hobby. I'd probably hold his opinion above that of a TPG. Also, he is an extremely nice person and very approachable. I'd send him an email explaining your concerns and see what he says.

 

If this dealer is who I think it is...he is one of the leading dealers in German coins nationwide. He is very well known and he knows his stuff. I'm certain he knows how to identify a proof.

 

It's most likely a regular strike with proof-like surfaces. Look up auction records, it has been sold many times as a PL medal. It's not a coin as it doesn't say 5M, and that's why Krause lists it at KM M1. Does this make sense?

 

Hey Hotpocket...did you ever contact the dealer?

 

Yes, he and I exchanged a few emails. Here is an excerpt with his explanation:

"NGC appears to be inconsistent with these...sometimes they call them Proofs; other times they call them Mint State. I don't have any documentation either way, I just graded it based on the raw and graded coins I've seen in the past. Mint State coins are frosty while Proofs are reflective. Personally, I wish they would call them all Specimens, because of the confusion. They were all made for two purposes: for Karl Goetz to obtain a job at the German mints and to sell to collectors."

At the end of the day, it appears that the coin is not really a proof, just proof-like.
Either way I love the coin and am keeping it.

 

Cool. Good to know that it got sorted out.

 

Thanks for the follow up. It's really nice.