Tooled ancient from CNG?

Does this coin look like it has been tooled?
http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=260284

 

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Worn, rough, scratchy,... but no sign of tooling imo...

Why do you think it is ?

 

I agree with Batman. No signs of tooling that I can see.

 

I won this auction...just suspicious.

 

It's a nice coin, just darkly toned and a little careworn and scratched. Congrats!

 

Thanks...The previous auction prior to the one that just ended had a beautiful Aphrodite Corinth drachm that I let slip by and have regretted it since....so this was an impulse purchase to fill that void. This coin is quite sub-par to the original I fell in love with but it still appealed to me, even with the dark toning and numerous cleaning scratches. The link below is the coin I regret not bidding on.
http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=259829

 

Btw...how can I tell if a coin has been tooled to add detail?

 

Know what you're shopping for I guess... Tooling is usually quite obvious for the trained eyes. and not that common on silver coins. Takes a good artist to completely hide himself in an ancient.

("Dark toning" is not a bad thing btw )

 

nathan => I love your new impulse purchase!! (I like the "lived-in" look)

Plus, you practically stole it at $70 (under estimate), compared to your original coin (which was also very sweet) that went for over 5-times its estimate ($513)

... congrats, brother!!

 

Yes, knowing the coin is a great start. I guess I am more pessimistic than Dionysus, BAD tooling is easily visible to the naked eye, GOOD tooling not so much. What you look for is detail that really has no right being there. Does the coin show signs of wear in the fields yet all high point detail remains? Is one side of the coin softly struck yet the other side have strong lettering? Does the style change? These are signs I look for if I am not a real expert on the coin. If I have the coin in hand I find it easier. In hand you can also look at relief, and if something is cut below the surface of the coin, which I find an easier way to identify tooling.

 

CNG will list on their auctions if they believe a coin tooled. While they could potentially make mistakes I trust them well enough (except that Bill guy I hear all he does is play with tesserae).

 

A number of thoughts about this coin and CNG: first, for coins that individuals sell in their electronic auctions (of which this coin is an example), CNG makes no comments or representations about those coins since it's not CNG selling the coin. So don't expect to read anything about tooling unless the seller is willing to make those statements himself.

Second, I do believe that there is tooling on both the obverse and reverse of this coin. While I'm not an expert in this area, the sharpness of the edges in Pegasus' forelegs is much higher than one would expect for a coin showing this much overall wear. The same is true of the leading edge of Pegasus' wing. On the reverse, the front profile of Aphrodite's nose, lips, and chin are all much sharper than a coin with this much wear would typically show. There are other smaller areas that also appear to be re-engraved.

Sorry to say this, since I realize you're the buyer of the coin, but it's still an OK coin for the amount you paid.

 

looks like a nice new coin to me....congrats to you.

 

This line from the terms of use for electronic auctions on CNG is what led me to assume that they would comment on the condition (such as tooling) on the coin.

I must have been mistaken thank you for pointing it out.

 

I resemble that remark.

 

This is wrong. CNG catalogs and takes responsibility for every coin they sell, excluding lots noted "sold as is," and even many of those. "The cataloger" = CNG. If a coin is significantly not as described it can be returned - this includes tooling and any significant flaws not noted in the description.

For the record, I do not feel there is any tooling on this coin. IdesofMarch is accustomed to dealing with much finer coins were one has to extremely cautious of tooling. Particularly on a cheaper, lower grade coin like this, what might appear to be tooling can often just be rough cleaning scratches.

EDIT: To clear up some more concerns, the reverse of this coin is slightly concave, slightly sheltering parts of the portrait from wear and causing what appears to be an unusual wear pattern.

 

I, too, would like to believe that CNG would call attention to tooling on coins in their electronic auctions, but this is simply not the case. For example, the following coin is listed on the current electronic auction with no particular comments about its condition:



This coin, particularly the legends, clearly has been tooled both on the obverse as well as the reverse. Worn coins that are NOT tooled tend to look like this:



The edges of the legends are gradual and worn, not sharp as a cliff.

I'm not casting aspersions on CNG -- I think very highly of them and have bought coins from their store as well as their auctions. But it would be impossible for them to evaluate and comment on every coin in their biweekly electronic auctions.

I reiterate my previous observations that the OP's coin has been somewhat tooled by sharpening the edges of some of the obverse and reverse devices. I could ask my dealer to comment on the coin -- he can spot tooling from 100 paces -- but it's not my goal to create friction and ill will about this topic. The minor tooling on the OP's coin doesn't really detract from its appeal.

 

To me sir its starts to get "fuzzy" at the level of the OP's coin. I see what you are pointing out, but I am unsure of intent. What I mean by that is when you clean a coin its a very natural action to be cleaning around the items you mention. So, is this action a result of simple cleaning, which the vast majority of our ancients have had done to them, or is it intentional tooling? I guess having a background of cleaning some ancients when I first got into this hobby I am using that experience to form my opinion. I have many of those coins still, and the ones in which I was a little too agressive or had to work harder to remove some material from you might also state have been tooled. Maybe from your standpoint they have, but it was never my intent to try to tool or improve the coin at all, merely to remove unwanted material that deposited there over 1600 years.

I hope this makes sense. I am firmly against tooling, and I prefer buying sestertii in person if possible to examine the field relief, color, and other less noticable signs of tooling if possible. So I am not trying to defend it sir, only point out sometimes what you call tooling might be innocent cleaning marks, especially for lesser specimens.

 

I wish more people would recognize this. I don't work directly with the esales as much anymore, but those who do are quite dedicated to noting any flaws that may appear on a coin, especially tooling. But we go through thousands of coins a month and we simply cannot catch everything.

I once again (respectfully) disagree with Ides - the Divus Augustus looks fine to me in the picture. I'll see if I can check it in hand later. This is my opinion, as the descriptions in auctions are the cataloger's opinion, and both can be wrong at times. Just know that I would never shy away from describing any flaw I see on a coin. If your eyes or those of your agent tell you otherwise, go with them - it's your collection and you need to be comfortable with the coin.

 

I do not have much trust in CNG any more based on recent personal experience.
Here is an indo-scyhian coin i bought in a recent auction. This is the sales picture:

The coin is a bit rough. But these bronzes often are overcleaned at some point in time.
When it arrived i found that the surface layer was flaking of. Like the coin had been painted. More alarming, part of the inscription seemed to be detaching.
This is what the coin looked after 2 seconds in acetone and a soft wipe:


The brown stuff is some plastic filler material, which did not dissolve completely yet.
I was disappointed, but hey that's the risk of not seeing the coin in hand before. I did e-mail CNG, mainly to inform them about the problem with the coin, and maybe it's supplier. What i found really disappointing is that they did not even bother to send me a reply..