Weird interaction at Central States show today

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by bkozak33, Apr 26, 2014.

Page 4 of 4
  1. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins

    "The first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers"........
     
    green18, Apr 27, 2014
    #61 + Quote Reply
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. geekpryde

    geekpryde Husband and Father Moderator

    Some dealers / Auction companies I have dealt with will tell you if a coin failed to CAC if you ask them privately, (and probably if you have done business with them in the past).

    Also, you can make a submission to CAC part of the deal, meaning you can pre-negotiate a return if the coin does not sticker, however, many dealers may not do a deal like this, or they may ask for additional money to make it worth their while (which I think is fair).
     
    geekpryde, Apr 27, 2014
    #62 + Quote Reply
    treylxapi47 likes this.
  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Oh I'm sure there are. But before they can take advantage of that good deal several things have to happen. First they have to be actively looking for that given coin, then they have to find or just happen to run across that dealer in one way or another, then they have to agree on the asking price. Now just how long do you think it might take for that to happen ? It might take weeks, months, even years. And where is the dealer's money while he is waiting ? Tied up in that coin not making him any money. And what does the dealer do if the market drops in the meantime ?

    So what is better ? To sell the coin to another dealer right now for a small profit, or to wait, who knows how long, to just happen to run across a collector who wants it ?

    Coin dealers are a business and the purpose of any business is to make money. And you don't make money by sitting on your hands and waiting. You make money by moving your inventory and then getting more inventory, and doing that over and over and over again.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 28, 2014
    #63 + Quote Reply
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    People seem to think that the TPGs and CAC exist for the good of the hobby, for the good of collectors. As if they do what they do to help us. Well I'm sorry but that just isn't true. They exist for one purpose and one purpose only - to make money. They are businesses and that is why any and all businesses exist. They don't grade coins for your benefit or my benefit, and they don't do it the way that they do it for us either - none of them. They very specifically do it in the way that will make them money right now and continue to make them money in the future.

    Now is that wrong ? Of course not ! That is their purpose, their sole reason for existence. Is it wrong for a business to make a profit ? To make decisions that will keep them in business and continue to make them a profit ? If it were, then none of them would be in business for very long.

    How many of you own a business or work at a business ? You all do, every one of you. Unless you are retired, but even then you used to. And where would you be if your business did not make money and do whatever it had to do to continue to make money ? You'd be broke and out of a job, and wishing you had one.

    So can we wish that they, the TPGs and CAC, did things differently ? Sure, there is an easy solution to get what we, the consumer, want. All of the TPGs, CAC, the ANA, and all of the dealers, and collectors - everybody would have to agree to adopt 1 single set of grading standards, and then stick to it. But if we got it then the TPGs & CAC would soon cease to exist. For soon all of the coins would be graded, except the new ones being made each year. And once they were graded there would be no reason to send them in again because nothing would change, they'd come back graded exactly the same because grading standards were universal and static - unchanging. The TPGs would either go out of business or have to merge into 1 company for there would be no reason to have more than 1 anymore. There would also not be enough business to support more than 1, and a small one at that.

    Now yeah, that would be great for us, the collectors. But it isn't going to happen, not ever, because no business is ever going to write its own death warrant. That would be stupid.

    So what do ya do ? Only one thing you can do, learn to grade yourself and ignore what the TPGs and CAC have to say. Decide for yourself if a given coin is worth this much or that much, it's your money not theirs and you control it. You have the final say. And if you want, you can put them out of business because you are the one paying the bills.

    But is that gonna happen ? Sure it will, when pigs fly.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 28, 2014
    #64 + Quote Reply
    Kentucky and green18 like this.
  6. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    You know what would be a lot easier than trying to get collectors, TPG's and CAC and the ANA agreeing on one set of standards?

    It would be if people collected and bought coins and not plastic tombs.
     
    scottishmoney, Apr 28, 2014
    #65 + Quote Reply
  7. Blaubart

    Blaubart Melt Value = 4.50

    There are car auctions that are only open to dealers. Just sayin...

    I have to wonder if this is a marketing/business decision more than a legal decision. Just think of how many coins have been submitted to CAC more than once by different owners who were unaware they had been submitted previously. They probably keep a record of the TPG serial numbers of all coins coming through and check their database first thing when a coin arrives to save themselves the time and effort of examining it again.

    EDIT: But yes, I agree with the OP that this is somewhat odd. Normally sellers list their full price and then work discounts into that, not list their discounted price and work surcharges onto that. I too would have walked away if I was in his position. Unless of course the price with surcharge was still better than I could find elsewhere.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
    Blaubart, Apr 28, 2014
    #66 + Quote Reply
  8. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    I think a lot of people forget too that dealers have known clients looking for something. When a dealer travels to a show, they have a list of items in their head for specific collectors...that if they buy even at a near retail price, they already have a client in mind to sell it to and make a quick profit.

    Here is a prime example. Just yesterday I sent a PM to LostDutchman letting him know I am looking for nationals from a certain city. Now, when Matt travels to shows or looks otherwise looks for inventory...he has another item to watch for. He knows if he finds one, I will be interested...so that item already has a buyer lined up. If he happens to be at a show next year and sees a dealer with that particular note for sale...it would make sense for him to purchase it because he has a client in mind (me).

    There are many reasons for a dealer to buy from another dealer...this is just one of those many reasons.
     
    CamaroDMD, Apr 28, 2014
    #67 + Quote Reply
  9. Slider

    Slider Member

    My local dealer has always compared pricing of coins to the pricing of autos...There are wholesale, dealer, and retail prices. He tries to buy wholesale whenever possible, be it from other dealers or individual collectors. Buying wholesale from another dealer often means the seller isn't making any money, but then again, it's a well accepted practice in a variety of industries to move inventory before it sits too long, so that's not surprising.

    Dealer prices are a step above wholesale, and in those transactions, the dealer (seller) is making money, albeit at a smaller margin. The dealer who bought at dealer prices then has to rely on selling at retail to make money himself. Dealers often buy at these prices when they're shopping for specific coins for their customers.

    Retail is the price that the customer is going to pay. Obviously, with as much room as there is between retail and wholesale, the ACTUAL price you pay is likely to be dependent on your relationship with the dealer.

    To the OP's point, it seems odd that the sign presented as "add 20% for retail" versus "discount 20% for dealers," but the pricing structure in general does not surprise me.
     
    Slider, Apr 28, 2014
    #68 + Quote Reply
  10. Blaubart

    Blaubart Melt Value = 4.50

    ...and don't you just love it when people list stuff on FeeBay using the word "wholesale" and price it at retail, or even above retail?

    On the bright side, I did manage to pick up a 2007 silver proof set for $31 shipped, just under melt plus face value of the clad proofs ($31.24) because the white outer box was "dirty all around". The coins are all fine though. That's what I call wholesale pricing, and I'd LOVE to find a true wholesale lot (100+ sets) at those prices.
     
    Blaubart, Apr 28, 2014
    #69 + Quote Reply
  11. Slider

    Slider Member

    Yes, ebay sellers do have a habit of trying to make you think everything they sell is rare and every price they offer is wholesale.

    That's a good price on a set like that. You must have a much better eye for those deals than I do. I've virtually given up on trying to find anything reasonably priced on that site.
     
    Slider, Apr 28, 2014
    #70 + Quote Reply
Page 4 of 4
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page