Weird interaction at Central States show today

Big coin shows are mostly attended by dealers, from what I see anyway.

 

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This whole thread just reinforces my belief that the collector isnt the one 'setting' the market.

When ever you bring up the fact that TPGs over grade coins or didnt grade it properly, you always hear the excuse that it is because the market dictates that it is acceptable to fudge this coin some of the time and not that one some of the time. You always hear the phrase 'this is what is market acceptable on this coin'. I mean this happens ALL the time, everyday there is a thread about a disputed opinion of a grade a major TPG assigned a coin.

So if the majority of coins are passing through the experts hands and then they give them arbitrary grades that arent consistent due to market acceptability, what good are they? Better yet, who is setting the market? They say they let these coins slide as problem free even with issues because the market will absorb it as a problem free example, but we arent seeing the market dictate anything. We are seeing private grading companies use this excuse (to make money), and then you have dealers who are selling these coins amongst themselves, and then finally on the tail end, the coin may reside with a collector, but apparently not if the majority of dealers are trading amongst themselves just to keep the cash flowing, and private collectors only make up a small percent of the dealings.

So who is setting the market? The TPGs who are the 'experts', the dealers who mainly trade between each other and who are also looking for a sucker to sell a sub-par coin to AND who are also supposed to be generally knowledgeable of coins, or the least knowledgeable collector?

Methinks 'Market Acceptable' is nothing more than a fancy sales gimmick repeaeted by dealers and TPGs to absolve themselves of selling sub-par coins and to make money on bad coins.

CAC is a much better route as it confirms whether a coin meets the accepted standard. I just wish they had a way to identify if a coin DIDNT sticker at CAC.

 

Interesting idea for sure. But it would never happen, because it would kill the market for those coins. Besides, it's easy to find coins that didn't CAC (sort of). If a major dealer says they are a CAC dealer, then assume the un-CAC'ed coins they have for sale failed to sticker.

 

Dont you think it SHOULD kill the market for coins that arent deemed acceptable? Wouldnt you be kind of pissed off if you bought a coin that was graded by PCGS as MS-64 like your Morgan, only to send it back to CAC (because the dealer before you already sent it in), to find out it didnt bean, which would mean it isnt actually a 64 to begin with.

So yeah, there should definitely be a 'details' sort of label or sticker from CAC, for full disclosure, but as is frequently stated about this hobby, there is alot of 'shadiness', because after all we have to pass our crappy coins on to someone else.

 

I GUARANTEE they dont adjust their prices down a grade to reflect that failed CAC either. So CAC is doing a half justice for the hobby. They are confirming whether NGC or PCGS got it right, but leaving the backdoor open for them in case they didnt. I would close the door on them and reap the rewards of having integrity and shining light on shadowy tactics across this hobby and industry.

 

If you learn how to properly grade on your own, and not depend on others opinions, you should have no worries........

 

This, this, this, and a million times this.

The problem is that I hold people of power to higher standards.

NGC and PCGS both know many of their coins end up in collectors hands who arent properly educated, and at the end of the day they are taking advantage of that by grading unacceptable coins as 'market acceptable' or 'problem-free', which is a cop out in my eyes, and I just have a hard time rallying behind businesses like that.

Do I buy their products, well sure, but I ALWAYS question whats on the outside from the moment I lay my eyes on a coin. I also try to shout this tactic from the roof tops because as a collector I know many other collectors are being taken advantage of all the time and its ridiculous. ALWAYS make your own assessment of the coin and make sure it meets YOUR standard, not anyone elses.

 

I know I rail against the TPGs like constantly, but they do offer benefits to this hobby too, I just hope for a day when its more comprehensive and based upon a hobby wide standard that benefits them, the dealers, and ultimately the ones who rule this hobby, the collectors.

The authentication that TPGs provide is an example of something I believe they do that is almost invaluable in this hobby today, but aside from whether a coin is genuine or not, I pay little attention to what the numerical grade is and always make sure it will meet my standard of not only today, but tomorrow as well.

 

Problem with this is, you're making CAC the final end-all say-all of coin grading. Forget that. They can be flat out wrong, too.

 

I realize that too, in fact I deleted what I was writing on that point to not overwhelm this thread

 

I really wish I had clarity at the moment on how to work around this, but I just havent thought it all the way through yet on this particular point. I realize I hope for a hobby environment that isnt practical due to the subjective nature of coins, but I do often wonder if there isnt a better way.

 

From your perspective in the trenches C-B-D, and I know you make a living utilizing some of these subtle nuances that I complain about, what do you think would be a better method or an improvement to help separate more of the wheat from the chaff, so to speak?

And keep in mind this is ignoring the selling of raw coins. I am only focusing on how to improve the legitimacy of the grading and to keep bad coins from entering the market through supposed experts and arbitrary terms like 'market acceptable'.

 

Hmmm... Maybe if the ANA, PCGS, and NGC required all employees and dealers to complete grading school? Too much?

 

Its not the individual graders fault though, it rests more on the TPGs standard, which is of course different from one another AND the ANAs.

The closest solution so far is the CAC sticker, but again its a subjective opinion too and mistakes can be made there as well.

Although I have far less to say about an honest mistake, versus a business model that is set up to deceive and even manipulate a 'market'.

 

I chuckle when I think about how the PR62 1804 dollar used to be an XF45 back in the day. (or maybe that's the wrong one. But one "proof uncirculated" one used to be an XF).

 

That would mean that everybody would use the same grading standard...which they do not. These are all private independent groups and they have set their own standards (and train their people accordingly). It's not the individual graders who get to make these decisions...they are employed to grade coins using a given standard set by their employer.

 

that's it in a nutshell. a grade gives you an idea of a range of quality but you really have to eyeball the coin with a critical view. that's just how the TPG system works. it might have flaws and agendas but you have to collect with the system as it is, not how you would like it to be.

 

If this had happened to me, I'd have bought the coin for $100 from someone else then walked right back over to the numbskull that wanted $120 to show him my prize!

Was it weird? Definitely and this seller will leave the show crying about how bad business was and how he didn;t even make back his registration fee's and blah blah blah.

The trick to a coin show is in knowing what you want, where its at and who has the best deal. You did good!

 

I know of a few dealers that do lower their price for low end coins in a grade. I've actually picked up some pretty nice coins, say an XF40 at a VF30-35 price. It's still an XF40, just not the top of the grade. But come resale time it makes it easier to move for either a better price or same price for those that just buy a label.

Just because a coin doesn't CAC doesn't mean it's not the grade on the label. It just might be the low to mid grade and not top end of the grade like most CACs are. That's why CAC coins will often sell for more than the grade books out at(whatever book you choose).

I just read Lost Dutchman's post about a grading class. It was interesting how grades are assigned. Especially the .9 and .1 grades. I'm guessing CACs are usually the .9's. But I may be wrong............

 

"CAC is a much better route as it confirms whether a coin meets the accepted standard. I just wish they had a way to identify if a coin DIDNT sticker at CAC."

Legal liability, as much as anything else, prevents this from happening.