I have a coin I am selling.....

OP, I really have no problem but you are just stirring the pot. Could you please reheat my soup? It wasn't nuked enough the first time.

 

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As long as you provide the heat


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I have no problem with either scenario.

 

The true question I see asked is is it ok to to grade modern coins and sell them right at issue. I see no problem with this but you need to accept that when you sell items this volatile that deals can go bad and the two week return policy can burn you. When you sell an item that can lose 80% value in days you have to come to the table knowing that your "customers" will likely do anything they can to wiggle out. eBay gives buyers a lot of wiggle room and if you want to continue to sell in this sector of the market I would recommend using a different venue for these specific coins.

 

I think Vic raises a good point (just wanted to give props for that!)

 

Yes it is true that what Vic says about the return policy, but this can happen on any item on ebay not just coins. As mentioned on other posts, I had one friend who had 8 gold coins and sold all 8 on ebay for anywhere between 4-5 thousand each with no problems. I had another buddy who had 5 gold and did the same with no problems. I was the 1%. I would probably say that 99% who sell coins like this have no problems. But there are the 1% who will and I was one of them. And you are right Vic, you have to know the possibilities when selling in a venue like this, but like Paul (Lehigh) said (or maybe it was Lee), ebay is ultimately the best venue for these items.

 

Let me rephrase my statement.

Anytime you sell any type of item that can drop 80% of its value in days then selling these items in ANY forum other then in person cash only transactions that you will have to expect your buyers to do anything to get their money back. And my love for eBay is limitless they are the biggest best coin store you will ever find.

 

Capitalism is a wonderful thing. If people weren't able to make money flipping coins, than there wouldn't be anywhere to buy coins because it wouldn't be worth anyone's time to sell them.

Winston Churchill once said that capitalism is the worst economic system on the planet except for all the other ones...

 

Vic, I understand what you are saying but I disagree with you. I don't have the expectation that buyers will do anything to get their money back. I surely wouldn't, but that is just how I am.

I disagree with that statement entirely Vic. As a consumer myself, of course I am going to try and get the best deal possible, but I am not one to utilize loopholes in the system to my benefit after I already decided on purchasing an item. Have I been burned before, absolutely...but would I take advantage of the system after a purchase...as of now, the answer is no.

I have been capitalizing on quick flips of coins purchased from the mint starting back in 2007 when the first spouse gold series started. This scenario has never once crossed my mind. Most people I would think that after they acquired a coin would be ecstatic and leave it at that. If you are constantly searching for a better deal after your purchase, I would think you would be one miserable person...I know I would anyway. After I purchase a coin do I go looking to see if I could have gotten a better deal.....yes, sometimes.....but I have yet to return a coin to only buy it cheaper. But that is just me and I know everyone is different. No one wants to be burned.

 

The difference, seems to be one of volatility, the morgan mentioned in the op is a coin that has been around, the variety also, the hof gold coin was finding its market niche, it was on its way up, I am pretty sure that had the market continued on its upward trend you probably would not have had a return.

I agree that you are playing the game by the rules as they have been constituted, I disagree with some of the rules, there might be some collectors who really like baseball and wanted to get an example of the HOF coins, but the flippers are there, logging into the website and ordering the max amount by the time the guy gets off work and checks the website, the coins are sold out, then he has to try to get one paying the premium.

 

I'm not saying that is ok to return a no refund item by inventing reasons why it is snad when it is not. At the same time you are not exactly talking about what I am. Let me be very specific. Anytime you sell an item that can and does drop 80% in value it does not matter how YOU would act. You are dealing with the public. A public who are in a situation where they are going to lose a month's worth of income. You need to deal with the public as they are not as you would act. Was it ok to make up bogus reasons for a snad? No. However you need to expect that a percentage of the public will do whatever they can to get their money back. How you would react as the buyer is totally irrelevant. All that matters is how they would react.

Dealing with the public is a statistical event. The professional understands this and is ready when someone is not acting reasonably or how you would. I have dealt with many people in my career who make choices that make returning this coin as a snad pale. But I am always ready to deal with problems that are created by bad decisions or criminal decisions.


eBay is about protecting the buyer first. Agree or disagree this is clear. eBay is not going to let someone lose 80% in days of a purchase if they complain. Please don't speak of bullion not only are these different topics but there are few (some but really very few) examples in history of bullion losing 80% value in days.

To all the dealers saying that this is going to push all sellers out of eBay I will say this. You are wrong. This eBay market is huge and when you can get the visibility from eBay many sellers are going to stay. They will bitch and moan. They will complain about particular circumstances with a buyer. A few might even leave but if everything the dealers is saying is true about this mass exodus of sellers why are the number of pcgs, ngc us coins up around 30% and total lots even more? Kind of like Medicare cuts to providers. Lots of cancer doctors talked about how infusion cuts would close all the clinics and yet they are for the most part still open. Home health companies talk all the time about how there will be no more companies yet cut after cut many are still there. (I know because I'm one of the guys who complain about cuts in my sector and says it will end things yet I still get up every morning and go to work just like all the others predicting the end of the world) Basically eBay has control over a significant amount of funding and eBay is not willing to fund problems. When I had problems they backed me 100%. I feel confident spending as much of my money as I do on eBay because I know that they have my back.

But as I said before the eBay coin market is growing not shrinking. Protecting buyers, especially the weak uninformed ones, restores trust and confidence into the market. A market that has a very long and troubled history of dishonesty. Look at the tpg's. They were basically created to protect those who want to collect coins from those who would want to try to take advantage of them because they have less knowledge. And the market has clearly become much stronger with pcgs and ngc involved.

It makes the whole sector stronger when a novice like this guy gets his money back. When new people enter the market and get gouged they just turn around and leave. We lose someone who wants to be a part of the market who backs their opinions with cash.

 

Even worse, when you list a volatile item with a 14-day return policy (or, if eBay has their rumored way, an even longer return term), you're selecting for the buyers who will take advantage of it.

People who want to buy and hold may not care that much about return policies -- if it's as described, they'll keep it regardless, and if it's not, they can return it regardless. Aggressive and unethical (IMHO) flippers, though, will stick with the return-policy auctions, just so they can do things like this. (The "unethical in everyone's opinion" flippers will buy anywhere and then file bogus SNADs if they want to return.)

So, whether you list with a return policy or not, you may get an ethical and problem-free buyer. If you do list with a return policy, though, you stand a higher chance of getting a bad buyer (again, the "bad" characterization is MHO to some extent). Of course, broadening your field of bidders may also increase your realized price. It's not a simple call.

 

Yeah the bottom line is selling highly volatile items on eBay puts you at risk. Personally I have never returned a certified coin even though I bought one that was totally a snad. But the catch is you have a huge market in eBay and dealing with buyers who buy with the INTENT of abusing the system is going to just be another cost of doing business on eBay

 

Very well said. Thank you.


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What is unethical about returning a coin with a return policy, when that policy states that the buyer can return it no questions asked for any reason whatsoever? If somebody wants to participate in a high risk market by selling volatile items, then it is their responsibility to understand all of the rules and agree to play by them. As a buyer I also have the right to play the game and take advantage of the rules as they are written. If you don't like the rules then nobody is forcing you to play.

However, as I stated before in the original thread on this topic, inventing a bogus reason for a SNAD return when the seller does NOT offer returns is unethical because it is breaking the rules. Therefore, anyone who falls victim to an unethical buyer under these circumstances has my sympathy.

 

Perhaps couching that as "my opinion" wasn't a strong enough disclaimer. I'm not comfortable applying the policy in that way. Whether that makes me "more ethical", or soft-hearted, or just soft-headed may be open for debate, but I doubt that debate would accomplish much.

 

That is the inherent problem on E-Bay. They should be concerned equally about protecting both buyers and sellers. They need both for their business model to exist.

Where did you get the statistic that the number of graded on coins up 30%? But let's assume that it is true, what kind of coins are you talking about? Every year the US Mint pumps out millions of new coins and every year hundreds of thousands of these coins are graded by NGC & PCGS as part of the registry craze. So it wouldn't surprise me that the total number of graded coins listed on E-Bay has increased. But what about the number of classic (pre 1964) coins listed? What about the total number of sellers?

When there is a dispute between a buyer and seller on E-Bay, the goal should be to side with the party who has been wronged, not simply follow a policy that the buyer is always right. That way, anyone who is following the rules, whether buyer or seller, could feel as though E-Bay has their back. Siding with the buyer as a default forces the seller to make a decision. One choice is to stop selling on E-Bay which is bad for buyers and E-Bay. The other is to incorporate the cost of fraud into the price of their coins which is bad for buyers.

How do you know this guy is a novice? You don't, plain and simple. This could have been a guy who thought that the price was going to go even higher and had the intention of flipping the coin for a profit.

Your post clearly illustrates the sickening type of hand holding that is destroying this country. A guy is too much of an idiot to make responsible decisions on his own, so we as a society must protect him. That is complete and total garbage. If someone is going to enter a volatile investment market without requisite knowledge, then they deserve everything the get, unless they are sold a fraudulent product like AAA rated subprime mortgage backed securities. Wish we could have filed a SNAD for them.

 

Actually I am risk averse so I probably wouldn't put myself in that situation to begin with, which goes along with my "soft hearted" or "soft-headed"-ness lol...

I just think it's funny how easy it is for all of us to complain about the other guy being unfair, unethical, etc. when somebody else is winning. This applies not just to coins, but to life in our capitalistic society in general.

 

I have been buying on eBay for years. One year ago there was an average of 100,000 pcgs and ngc coins on eBay. Today the average is 130,000.

The average number of raw coin lots used to be around 450,000 now it is 700,000.

Anyone buying that coin at that price is by definition a novice. It is pretty clear to me the coin can only go down.

I absolutely don't believe in the nanny state. All I do every day is watch people who don't pay for their health care receive thousands of dollars of "free" care because they would rather buy a cell phone then prescription meds. People who spend more money on tobacco then on seeing a doctor each month and buying generic meds.

I kind of take issue with you assigning me a political opinion. Last time I checked I didn't say the us government should get involved. I didn't say the customer should sue. If I remember correctly I was talking about non governmental private(publically traded) company that people can choose to use that maintains its own reputation so buyers can feel confident that they will be treated well. If you look at my other posts you will see I specifically said that if you want to buy and sell these highly volatile coins do It in person in cash so there are no refunds period. Maybe you chose to ignore those posts.

You have no idea how opposed to your opinion of me I am. But I also believe that private companies can do business any way they choose. You are confusing eBay for the government of the United States of America. eBay can and does what they think is best, and that includes making sure their customers do not get hit hard for bad choices. Don't agree sell your coins elsewhere.

 

I;m a little late to the discussion, but I don't have a problem with either scenario. If that's what these coins are selling for...then that's what they are selling for.

I don't think you have any evidence of this. People (including very experienced collectors) have different motivation. To many people, having something before everyone else is important. If those people have a lot of disposable income...and they want that HOF coin before everyone else has one, what is wrong with them spending more money to get it.