Colosseum Sestertius - Opinions?

This Titus Colosseum sestertius is being offered in an upcoming auction. The estimate is $80,000 and the opening bid is $40,000:



Recently I had an opportunity to view this coin with my dealer. While the obverse is decent (relative to the universe of these coins) the reverse is completely tooled, as is apparent from the picture. It's likely that the reverse had been almost flat and whoever re-engraved it decided it was better to outline all the devices and legends rather than leave them untouched.

Personally, I would not ever bid on such a coin, and I'm not sure I'd even want to own it despite its rarity. But I was wondering how others on this site feel about purchasing or owning an obviously tooled coin. What's your opinion?

 

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This kind of coin is way out of my pay grade. However, if I had the money and the desire, this would not be what I would spend my hard earned cash. I don't mind a little smoothing, but "re-engraved" is not worth those kinds of shekels.

 

I agree. I don't see much difference between tooling a coin and taking an absolutely flat bronze slug and completely tooling your own coin.

 

I agree......if someone wants to pay even $10000, I'll make them one, and I bet I could do a better job than this coin. Laser cutters could produce superb examples.

 

Until people with money (that does not include Bing and I stop paying more for a tooled coin than they would for that same coin before it was tooled, we will continue to see things like this. I'd say this coin is better than most tooled coins we see but I suspect that is because the shops that produce these things let apprentices practice on Hadrians before they give them a big deal coin. I agree with YOC that laser guided, laser cuttter products are probably not too far off. I suspect the only thing holding it up now is the cost of production. Considering what we got in a TV in 1950 for $500, the hobby may be in trouble.

 

I think the market has spoken on this particular coin - I looked at it in 2010 and didn't bid on it (it failed to sell at a $70K estimate). I viewed it again a couple of weeks ago, and still don't like it. Not only is the tooling very obvious as you said, but the coin as a whole lacks "character" in my opinion: the pictures position it better than it looks in-hand (whereas Heritage's pictures of my example were absolutely terrible - upon seeing it in person, I literally doubled my maximum bid).

However, considering that the heavily tooled/smoothed Christophe Joron-Derem example which was discussed here a couple weeks ago ended up selling for $97K, I imagine this will still be bid on strongly. It seems like there is still a market for these even when heavily messed with, and Heritage is certainly advertising it significantly.

So far, this example has one bid on it at $40K, 27 people tracking, and 825 views (and the full written estimate is $80-100K). On the auction day, my example had 52 tracking, 3,500 views, and had a $60-70K estimate, but no bids until the live sale.

Another factor to take into account is the other coins in the auction and overall attendance. Mine was sold alongside a number of low-value coins and had very few people overall, with many lots going unsold. This auction is bound to be very well attended, between the aurei and other coins throughout the sale, although as it stands right now, there aren't many bids posted online.

I'm very curious as to what it will end up realizing - the tea leaves aren't telling a convincing story just yet. I plan on attending the auction in person myself and will provide some commentary from the front lines.

 

How much would it be worth with no reverse?

 

Everyone's answer will be relative to their budget. I've bought problem coins if I could get them for cheap, which for me means $20 or less. Perhaps $80K is pocket change for some collectors and they'd feel the same way.

 

Tooled...for $80 grand...
...for me to even consider it, it would have to be a few years newer and have gull-wing doors. Looking at the coin I would be in it for $500. If someone says its worth $100 grand...I believe them...

 

This might have been a good place for the auction house to come clean and describe the coin as a tooled space filler but an opportunity to get a coin otherwise unavailable in a lower price range. If they started the bidding at $10k they might have attracted a group of bidders who would not start at $40k but who could get carried away in that region. We will never know but doing that would silence those of us who consider the auction house shabby because they are handling the coin.

That might also be a bad idea since people in the 10k bracket might be bidding on some other coins in the sale and decide to skip some of those ordinary Julio Claudian aurei so they have cash left to go for the Colosseum. All the auction house really cares about is that no bidder has any money left unspent when the last hammer falls. Coin auctions usually go in order of date or place. I wonder how the results would be different if the house were to order the lots to their best advantage. It would, at least, require employment of a new marketing expert who would insure the prime coins come up when they should.

 

I've wondered about this as well. I appreciate the rationale behind the varied chronological/alphabetic/location sequencing, but I think in many cases, it would make more sense, from a price maximization perspective, to sequence lots based on the potential overlap and financial allocation of bidders. There is auction momentum to take into account as well: "stacking the deck" with low-estimated lots that are guaranteed to realize substantial gains over the estimate could perhaps excite bidders.

In several instances, I've missed out bidding on coins I would have loved to acquire due to chasing after expensive ones later in the sale. The Colosseum sestertius prevented me from bidding on several lots earlier in the sale because I assumed it would go considerably higher, and when I was bidding on the EID MAR, I skipped about a dozen other coins I would have wanted to acquire in months prior. The Nomos auction prior to the NAC auction had overall extremely low prices and I've been kicking myself ever since for not bidding on coins there. Everyone has finite resources, and in my utopia, I would offer some way to re-sequence lots (or some easy-to-use facility for underbidders to make an offer after the auction finishes to the winner for an immediate profit, split between the winner and consignor, with some limitations to prevent manipulation).

 

I will photograph an example. I spoke to a DT dept at a school I have a contract with, they agreed to photograph a coin of mine and do a test 'burn' on some wood...it would be a great present idea for someone with a favourite coin they own, photograph it and burn the enlarged image onto a coaster or small wooden plaque. The burn works on the degrees of shading, so a good side lit photo would work well. i saw a burn they did on some clear perspex of a photograph of Sherborne Abbey...it was unbelievably good. A guy they know has made his own laser cutter/etcher with same software and guts, but more powerful lasers for cutting metal. Once cut and buffed down, I bet most would be fooled. dies could be made easilt too and then used to strike blank worn sestertius ........ I think the hobby could be in turmoil in a few years, but I hope we can find ways to keep our authentic coins apart from the fakes.

 

If I had that kind of money to spend, I wouldn't. I would want a real issue of that coin that would be untouched for the most part. Some cleaning marks would be understandable.

 

I believe that coin is part of the upcoming World and Ancient Coin Auction this month in Chicago sponsored by Heritage Auctions:



Interestingly, an impressive imperial gold collection from Andre Constatine Dimitriadis is also separately featured.

All coins from this imperial gold collection have been photo-certified by NGC, with the option to encapsulate them free after the auction.

I know it is controversial among some, but I like this photo-certification with option for encapsulation. Buying anything over the internet is fraught with dangers. (NGC refuses to certify any tooled coin.) Having NGC (or anyone with experience and reputation) at least photo-certify any large purchase would allay my fears, especially if I can't see the coin "in hand." (I know there is no guarantee, however.) Then, again, it is a moot point since I can't afford coins in the several thousand dollar price range.


guy

 

I've noticed in the video that the coin did not receive a grade so then it must be tooled or something is wrong with it.

 

I took the opportunity to view a number of the gold coins available in this collection, with the thought of possibly extending my current 12 Caesars collection into later emperors. Based on the quality of the pictures in the printed catalog, I thought some of the aurei looked interesting.

NOTE: I prefer the usual ancients grading system (F, VF, EF, about EF, etc.) rather than the NGC system which I find essentially meaningless and view as an attempt to force modern grading standards on ancient coins that really don't fit into that grading system.

It's not my intention to cast aspersions on the collection, but upon closer examination most of the aurei showed signs of cleaning marks and were otherwise not quite up to the grade that I would consider for my collection. I wouldn't have known this without viewing the coins in person with a 5X magnifier.

It remains my personal belief that anyone considering purchasing ancient coins of this grade and price range should ALWAYS view the coins in person, or have a trusted dealer do this, prior to purchasing or bidding on them.

 

No words more wise are likely to appear here. Relatively few of us have the experience of handling enough coins in this price range that we should go into such a purchase alone. Unfortunately few people who call themselves dealers do. As a guide, if you are planning to spend more on a coin than it would cost to go to the sale, you might consider a trip. If you have more money than experience, it would be better to send a trusted representative. On one occasion, years ago, I carpooled to CNG in Pennsylvania with two friends to examine upcoming lots of interest. As a result some of my planned bids were halved while others were doubled. I won 10 coins in that sale. While there, I bought 3 coins from stock, as I recall, so it was not a lost cause if I did not win every coin I wanted. I don't know if they even allow this anymore. This was before 'Electronic Auctions' so big dealers always had nice coins that did not make it into their catalog auctions.

Of course this does not apply to those who value $10k the way I do $1. They should just bid away and pay the salaries of the staff.

 

I didn't think there was anyone who valued a dollar more than me. But I guess I was wrong. Then there was Doug!

 

FYI - this Colosseum sestertius just sold for $106K all in. It was quite late in the auction: prices early in the sale were very high but they dropped off (I picked up one lot quite cheaply but was priced out of all of the aurei).

 

I'm just stunned by the willingness of some collectors to accept obviously tooled coins and pay premium prices for them based on their rarity. I suppose that this willingness will be beneficial to the prices of those coins that are not tooled or overly smoothed, but in the aggregate I think that the acceptance of highly priced tooled coins is a serious detriment to the hobby of numismatics.