For new collectors visiting the site, regarding "blast white" coins--

Just wanted to write a brief note to the new collectors who often have questions as to what the grade of their coin is, and if it has been cleaned. It is necessary to indicate that if the coin is made of Silver, and is bright in appearance, in all likelihood, it has been dipped to remove undesirable tone or tarnish. Here is an example of a con that was dipped and is slowly retuning:



Note that the coin does not show any hairlines, but does show a certain "flatness" in terms of luster. If it were to be held up to light, the reflectivity would probably be uneven. This particular coin may or not be graded.


More extreme examples of cleaning of coins follow. Here is a picture of a way over dipped Morgan dollar that someone unknowledgeable of the process attempted to clean. Note that the surface shows dullness, destroyed metal content, and minimal or no luste. Its cleaning is far more destructive than the Liberty Walking Quarter:








Here is an example of a mechanically cleaned (whizzed) coin. Note the abrasive marks on it, and where the surface is scratched and gouged due to the use of tools. Note the contrast with the dipped and retuning coin--there isn't mechanical damage on the WalkingQuarter, but there is on the whizzed Seated coin:






Also be wary of "basement slabbed coins" that are encapsulated by third party graders who are not part of the legitimate TPG companies. I have never heard of this one, but they slabbed and graded an obviously cleaned coin, and gave it a gem grade. Beware!!




This is by no means comprehensive on cleaned coins, but hopefully, it will show some of the problems with raw and bargain basement TPG coins that are not market acceptable. Remember, if the price is too good, and the coin looks too artificially shiny, it probably is a problem coin. Hope this helps, and members, feel free to add their own examples.

 

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Most older coins that are bright white have been cleaned.
There was a time many years ago when people would rub the coin with a handkerchief to make the coin look better

 

I liked your write up and photos. This also applies to other silver coins.

 

While it is true that most coins that are blast white have been cleaned...that doesn't mean they have been cleaned with a handkerchief or any other kind of mechanical cleaning. It is true that such a cleaning wad the norm at a certain time...but that type of cleaning leaves an obvious telltale sign...hairlines. A 19th century silver coin that is blast white...that lacks hairlines has been dipped, not mechanically cleaned.

 

Thanks. Here is a cleaned Morgan Dollar, and an analysis of what the cleaning marks look like for those who aren't sure:

 

Nice write up.
Three things though: standing liberty quarter, proof read & spell check.

 

Nice writeup. This is one of the harder areas of numismatics to teach people. My only input would be to emphasize that even if its blast white from dipping it can still grade. The key is luster. A coin straight from the mint can be dipped a couple of times in its life and still have enough luster to be acceptable if the person knows what they are doing. Anyone wanting to test this easily can on a silver round, in fact I encourage it if you ever desire to use dip, (sometimes necessary to preserve a coin).

Morgandude and I have disagreed in the past on toned coins, but I think its more semantics. If we substitute original luster for toning then we agree. An original coin from the 19th century with original luster is a rare thing, and most of the time a very pretty thing. I agree those coins are worth premiums, but most of the time this premium gets associated with "color" than "original luster".

 

Thanks grammar police--I wrote it from my iPad mini.

 

I still cannot always tell when a coin has been cleaned. Hairlines are easy enough to identify, but I still get regularly surprised by PCGS when they say one of my submissions has been cleaned.

 

I completely agree. Often dipping can even make a coin more valuable by removing undesirable toning or might even save a coin by removing potentially damaging toning. It's all about preserving he luster. The problem is...you never really know what is under the toning until you remove it.

 

Exactly.

I know people like to throw previous generations of collectors under the bus, but this was the reason WHY dipping was done. Collectors wanted to be sure that there was not hidden damage under the toning, which many times there was. Were tons and tons of coins mishandled in the past? Yes, of course, but not all treatments were out of ignorance.

Its still an issue for toned collectors today. If its darkly toned, you are not certain that damage is being hidden by the toning. This is why, while i love toned coins as I think they are pretty, its confusing to me why they would be more expensive than an original coin not darkly toned. The best purchase IMHO is an original coin with as little toning on it as possible, that way you get the best surfaces and still can be sure there is no damage.

 

To extend this just a tad, to my understanding, luster is a property of mint-state coins. Now, let's take a VF or XF coin. These coins would have very little or no luster remaining. What are the pros or cons of dipping or otherwise cleaning them?

 

There are a few things that might be added.

Luster is caused by light refraction off of flow lines, but these lines are mostly removed or obliterate on well-circulated coins. At the EF level the great majority of flow lines have typically been removed and, thus, luster is not present throughout the coin's surface. A business strike coin that is dipped after the flow lines are already gone will generally look flat, lifeless, oddly white and just plain wrong. However, many of these same coins, if dipped many years ago, went on to obtain colorful secondary toning that a large segment of the hobby just adores and will pay strong money to obtain.

The removal of toning, dirt or grime by dipping does not generally help the surfaces underneath because if they are already damaged then they will stay damaged. Indeed, any damage beneath toning, dirt or grime often becomes much more visible after a dip. If you read old coin magazines (old, like 1900-1950) you will find that dipping coins was many times associated with improving apparent grade and was not often thought of as removing possibly damaging contaminants. People associated a coin without toning or gunk as a coin with a higher grade and these were marketed at higher price levels.

 

Doug, do you think TPGs have any use at all? All you do is repetitively trash their "arbitrary" actions, and how they don't get it right. We understand that you don't see much use for TPGs, and see your coin evaluation skills as superior, but this is really out of hand. A new person reading your comments would assume that PCGS and NGC are useless, and never get it right. That is simply not so--their accuracy rate is well over 90+ % on grading, and I defy any collector to match those percentages.

 

Great thread. I'd like to add that TPGs may not grade coins that look 'perfect' at first glance, i.e. they have the exact same color everywhere, zero toning and no spots. I made this experience when first submitting commemoratives which all came back as 'UNC det - imp. cleaned'. I was told they must have been overdipped and that's the reason for the details grade. No hairlines, nothing obvious, at least to my eyes when I started collecting...

 

90%, not bad as long as you aren't a doctor.

 

I have yet to figure out the TPGs. Their standards just baffle me sometimes and i only rely on them to get an idea of what I am looking at. Essentially the slab just offers the peace of mind that its at least genuine and that its within a couple grades of whatever is on the front.

Aside from that I start using my own standard to decide if the coin is one I want as soon as I register the easy stuff garnered from the slab. I am quickly learning the look that I like and the looks i want to stay away from.

It just blows me away when a mid 19th century coin comes back as an XF-45 (Or AU coin for that matter) with obvious hairlines mostly in the field and sometimes clearly dipped.

 

The market has long dictated that dipped coins are acceptable to the majority and, therefore, are liquid as problem-free. The TPGs are only reflecting market reality in this case. Hairlines on EF/AU coins should be expected since the coins circulated heavily and they only show up that well on dipped coins because the toning, dirt and grime has been stripped away.

Regardless, I agree with you that a dipped EF/AU is ghastly and something I generally run away from very quickly.