Why I like Moderns

These submissions and results show why, they aren't my submissions but show why classics are in trouble:

Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 11269801 7042 1876-CC T$1 US Not Genuine
2 1 11269802 7047 1878-CC T$1 Trade US Not Genuine
3 1 11269803 7042 1876-CC T$1 US Not Genuine
4 1 11269804 7036 1874-S T$1 US Not Genuine
5 1 11269805 7042 1876-CC T$1 US Not Genuine
6 1 11269806 2436 1910 1C US MS63RB
7 1 11269807 2833 1955-S 1C US MS66RD
8 1 11269808 2833 1955-S 1C US MS65RD

1 1 11397034 7856 1904 $2.50 US Damage or Tooling
2 1 11397035 7466 1926 $2.50 Sesquicentennial US Cleaned
3 1 11397036 8176 1838 $5 US Cleaned
4 1 11397037 8511 1908-D $5 US Altered Surface
5 1 11397038 7944 1912 $2.50 US Altered Surface
6 1 11397039 8742 1899 $10 US Damage or Tooling
7 1 11397040 8852 1907 $10 No Motto US Cleaned
8 1 11397041 8876 1914-D $10 US AU55


Not to bash classics, but these results can kill off lots of potential collectors.

 

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IMHO, cleaning doesn't *always* detract from collecting. I have a seated liberty quarter (slabbed as cleaned by ANACS) and it doesn't bother me. Personally, I'd rather have it than some of the dark or toned ones out there. I'm sure at least a few of the large copper cents I have have been cleaned as well, but probably years ago before it was so taboo.

I've got some cleaned ancients too, but no one seems to mind that

 

This is why all collectors should heed the old saying---Buy the Book BEFORE you buy the coin----while one book can not help on all of these things, I think it is, or at least should be, every collectors goal to learn as much as he can so he does not get stuck with such things as listed above.
You will note that all of the Trade Dollars were marked as fake---now I know that there are some good fakes out there but as Zane has pointed out before---even really good fakes can be picked out pretty good.....that is what I want to work on....I'm building my coin book library as I can but one goal I have is to not only own the good books...but as I get them I'm reading them page by page....some of the books such as The Cherry Pickers Guide you just don't sit down and read, and that isn't the type of book I'm talking about, but its more of the info books.....so many times we have the info we need right at our finger-tips, and if we would take hold of that info we wouldn't fall prey to fake or damaged coins....but needless to say, we all have, and more than likely we will again.
This thread should be a good warning to all of us----

Speedy

 

I have to strongly disagree. What they show me is that the submitter is buying coins that he/she shouldn't be, because he/she doesn't know enough about them and simply hasn't done an adequate job of educational preparation..

 

There are a lot of reasons to like moderns, and the many "problems" associated with classic coins that are not associated with moderns.

However, the evidence provided by the OP only suggests that whoever submitted those coins either doesn't have a clue about coins or was hoping to hit a home run, nothing more.

There are unique problems with moderns too, including in most cases their only rarity being conditional in nature, and the extremely subjective nature of TPG grading in distinguising between grades yet the huge multiples in price they fetch for a one point grade bump. In my opinion, the high-grade TPG modern market is is a contrived market that will not stand the test of time. However, the raw modern market is full of both education and opportunity -- and if buying at close to face value raw moderns have an extremely limited downside making them very attractive to many.

Collecting all types of coins -- moderns, classics, colonials, etc. -- is fraught with peril. Often the way this is learned is through submissions such as the two you posted. I'll bet the submitter got a very valuable (and arguably fairly expensive) education in what PCGS considers market acceptable that he/she won't soon forget. The difference between a disgruntled collector and one who continues in the hobby is often the ones who learn "cheaply" -- through forums such as this, the ANA, a mentor, etc.

To wit, I often tell new collectors that they should not buy anything over twenty dollars for their first year into the hobby. A very few have taken the advice and it leads them, and very righfully so, to moderns. Most laugh, then a year later tell me how good a piece of advice they ignored. I know I wished I had followed it the first time it was told to me.

Just a few random thoughts, respectfully submitted....Mike

 

Most of the problems with the older coins can be avoided by buying
coins in slabs or collecting raw coins in lower grades. It's only natural
that coins that have been around for many decades are going to of-
ten pick up some problems.

I like moderns because most are uncharted territory. You have to really
learn something about the coins and that's where I have fun.

 

This poor guy hit the jackpot:

1 1 11288919 5601 1892 25C US MS63
2 1 11288920 9307 1922 50C Grant Star US Cleaned
3 1 11288921 5740 1921 25C US Cleaned
4 1 11288922 5728 1919 25C US Altered Surface
5 1 11288923 5296 1875 20C US Cleaned
6 1 11288924 9220 1893 25C Isabella US MS63
7 1 11288925 5037 1942/1 10C US CleanedFB
8 1 11288926 4937 1921-D 10C US CleanedFB
9 1 11288927 5077 1942 10C US PR65
10 1 11288928 5074 1939 10C US PR65
11 1 11288929 3981 1937-D 5C US Not Genuine
12 1 11288930 1123 1809 1/2C US Altered SurfaceBN
13 1 11288931 2434 1909-S 1C Lincoln US Altered SurfaceRD
14 1 11288932 2128 1877 1C US Altered SurfaceRB
15 1 11288933 2428 1909-S VDB 1C US Not GenuineRD
16 1 11288934 2238 1909-S 1C Indian US AU50BN
17 1 11288935 2037 1856 1C Flying Eagle US No grade available
18 1 11288936 2471 1914-D 1C US VF25BN
19 1 11288937 6163 1833 50C US Questionable Color

I only hope some see these and learn from the mistakes of others. I also agree buying slabbed coins can diminissh the chances of getting stuck with problem coins of any year.

 

On this quote - I do not think classics are in trouble. It is not impossible to find 100 or 200 year old raw coins that can still be graded. PCGS will not grade anything they deem a problem - it does not mean they are perfect. Now here is where we kind of disagree "simply hasn't done an adequate job of educational preparation". I agree on this with the trade dollars based on "only what I have read". Where I disagree is that no amount of education can replace real life experiences, but it will probably prevent some of the most glaring mistakes. Maybe that is what you meant.

For example - my father just recently submitted 8(morgans) coins to PCGS. As part of our selection process we used MS63, MS64 ,MS65 PCGS and NGC coins to compare them to. And do not take me wrong we are pleased with this learning experience. Out of the 8, 2 were body bagged - all of the rest were 62-64. I thought at least two stood a shot at 64/65 and the rest would be 60-63. I can't wait for his coins to come back to do more comparisons. I am going to have to line them to compare mint lustre and bag marks to see if it helps. Where I struggle is that I know I have some problem coins that I would like graded, so I am probably going to use ANACS(most of mine are copper). I think I might try PCGS on my shield nickels. And if a couple are body bagged it will not bother me. I will probably sit down and grade them again this weekend and have my father send them to PCGS next week. As much as I hate to say it I am sure a couple will still be body bagged - I do not think any are cleaned or corroded, but like PCGS I am not perfect.

Sorry about being long winded - but this makes me think some of the college grads that come into the IT industry with 4/5 years schooling and oodles of certifications, only to get smacked in the face with real life. Time for me to take some lumps in my education.

 

I agree Mark---hands on is the best learning tool!...like I said above in my post, I think reading and learning from books would help a good deal, there is nothing that can come close to hands on learning. I've bought fake coins...sometimes I knew that they were fake and other times I had no idea....once I was given a 1931-S Cent that was fake---it fooled me, the 3 was weak and I marked it up as a weak strike, later on down the road I showed it to a dealer and he said that he thought it was fake and sure enough it was.
Last year I set up at a show and one older man came in that had collected for years---(he is the type we are talking about) he has neat coins, and while he has collected for years he never laid hold on common info....he carrys a box of coins with him to coin shows to show off...and a good many of the coins were fake--he wasn't asking our thoughts so none of the dealers there really knew what to say about it so they just didn't say anything---he showed me one set and I said something like, "in this one real" (it was a 1914-D Cent that was a blatant fake) and he said "of course". If he had taking the time to read some he would have seen that the coin was a bad fake---I've seen fakes that are good and hardly detectable but this one wasn't good at all---
While he has had the hands on learning---he missed a major part that he needed badly.
Since then he came into a shop while I was there with some other coins asking the dealers thoughts---I also viewed the coins and they were fake...but he just smiled and said...oh...they are silver anyway.

Speedy

Speedy

 

What tremendous psychological power and mind control the TPGs wield over the masses!

Through the threat of the "body-bag," they have managed to terrify the collecting public to the point where people are sometimes afraid to collect many pretty good looking old coins that may have a small problem or two. With a five second decision between 64 and 65 they can create or destroy hundreds of dollars of value. With a body bag, they can turn a historical artifact into a lump of bullion. This situation makes it harder to enjoy the hobby if your numismatic skills are anything less than expert because in the back of your mind, there will be a little voice reminding you that every raw coin purchase might be a blunder.

 

These are the last two I will post. Both orders ran the table on problems.

1 1 11242886 7356 1921 $1 Peace US Altered Surface
2 1 11242887 7367 1926 $1 US Altered Surface
3 1 11242888 7371 1927-D $1 US Altered Surface
4 1 11242889 7373 1928 $1 US Altered Surface
5 1 11242890 7375 1934 $1 US Altered Surface
6 1 11242891 7114 1880-O $1 US Altered Surface
7 1 11242892 7148 1883-S $1 US Cleaned
8 1 11242893 3790 1866 5C With Rays US Damage or Tooling

1 1 11272069 5037 1942/1 10C US Altered SurfaceFB
2 1 11272070 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US Damage or Tooling
3 1 11272071 7698 1839 $2.50 US Damage or Tooling
4 1 11272072 8866 1910-D $10 US Cleaned
5 1 11272073 8866 1910-D $10 US Not Genuine
6 1 11272074 9034 1898-S $20 US Cleaned

 

I think you and speedy are right. I was very happy with the PCGS experience for my dad. What made it even better experience was my fathers excitement. When he told me the grades and what happened his first comment is - "I think I got the technical piece close, now I am going to figure out exactly what they know that I do not know." He already has several books on morgans, VAMs, etc. It is just the extra step of getting the small differences that account for a 62 to 64. So he is ready to learn more. I was just glad the body bag coins did not disgruntle him - one of the coins came from a very reputable ebay dealer. His coins usually go for what are outrageous amounts(in my opinion only). The other thing is a couple of the 64's came from Harlan Berk and were graded dead-on.

A body bag doesn't scare me, but I have found that exact thought going thru my mind when looking at some raw coins. I know I lost a couple of heritage large cents that I thought looked great, but were ANACs retoned coins. I actually wish now I had bid more. I have several problem coins (I posted my 1868 IHC whizzed) that I certainly like. Out of all my coins I have only three problem coins that I would get rid of - 1 because I decided I do not like the color, one with a little spot of corrosion, 1818 Large cent that the seller took a wire brush to. The first two I new what I was getting and I thought I paid fair prices for - the last one was the negative I got on ebay. I attached a jpg that if you blow it up, even though things go out of focus, you can see where it looks altered. Can someone confirm this? Too late to do anything about.

Forgot to add these are the pictures from the auction - oh well.

 

Why would someone waste time on changing a 1921 Peace Dollar or even the 1926

Exactly what is Altered, does it cover all types of changes to the metal

 

11 1 11288929 3981 1937-D 5C US Not Genuine

Whats this, a cast 3-leg or something ?

 

After showing those horrible submissions, here is an unbelievable one taken from the shared orders page. This just goes to prove that it all comes down to knowledge and education.

Since the numbers are sequential, these are crackout jobs or were previously raw.
1 1 05936979 9141 1907 $20 Saint US MS66
2 1 05936980 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
3 1 05936981 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
4 1 05936982 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
5 1 05936983 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
6 1 05936984 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
7 1 05936985 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
8 1 05936986 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
9 1 05936987 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
10 1 05936988 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS65
11 1 05936989 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
12 1 05936990 9142 1908 $20 No Motto US MS66
13 1 05936991 9158 1911-D $20 US MS66
14 1 05936992 9158 1911-D $20 US MS66
15 1 05936993 9176 1923-D $20 US MS66
16 1 05936994 9176 1923-D $20 US MS66
17 1 05936995 9176 1923-D $20 US MS66
18 1 05936996 9176 1923-D $20 US MS66
19 1 05936997 9177 1924 $20 US MS66
20 1 05936998 9177 1924 $20 US MS66
21 1 05936999 9177 1924 $20 US MS66
22 1 05937000 9177 1924 $20 US MS66
23 1 05937001 9177 1924 $20 US MS66
24 1 05937002 9177 1924 $20 US MS66
25 1 05937003 9180 1925 $20 US MS66
26 1 05937004 9186 1927 $20 US MS66
27 1 05937005 9186 1927 $20 US MS66
28 1 05937006 9189 1928 $20 US MS66
29 1 05937007 9189 1928 $20 US MS66
30 1 05937008 9189 1928 $20 US MS66
31 1 05937009 9189 1928 $20 US MS66
32 1 05937010 9189 1928 $20 US MS66
33 1 05937011 9189 1928 $20 US MS66
34 1 05937012 9189 1928 $20 US MS66
35 1 05937013 9189 1928 $20 US MS66
36 1 05937014 9189 1928 $20 US MS66
37 1 05937015 9189 1928 $20 US MS66

 

Ouch. Do genuine trade dollars in fact exist, lol? I don't think I've ever seen one... no coin shop I've ever been too has any... too scared to buy one on eBay unless it's certified already, don't trust my ability to tell a fake one from a real one.

 

Mike,
I only wish that I had found this site (Coin Talk) a few years ago when I started buying Morgan Dollars! With that advice, not only would I have a better collection of Morgan Dollars, I would have saved HUNDREDS of dollars in the process! GREAT advice to anyone just starting out!

 

I have been thinking about moderns lately and why I like them so much and came up with these reasons.
1) I collect them for my kids not myself.
2) I like to be the one that pulls the coin out of circulation for future collectors.
3) I don't like coins that have passed through who knows how many collections.
4) I like to see the coins as they first reach circulation.
5) Face it, they are easy to collect.
6) There values can only increase over face value.
7) They are always the best condition coins in your collection.
8) You get to decide how to preserve them.
9) And reasons yet to come. :thumb: