Just picked up my first old gold. Any opinions on grade/value?

Agreed. I, too, would like to meet GDJMSP's source for common date small gold coins in MS63 for 10% over spot.

If what he's saying is true, he has quite the potential for some pretty hefty arbitrage, as APMEX is buying indian $5s and all $2.50s in AU, uncertified condition (with no regard to date) for significantly more than he claims to be getting MS63 examples. As for the gold $1s, he could crack them out of their holders, polish them up nicely, and still sell to APMEX for about $50 more than 10% over spot (their buy price on cleaned dollars is $120, and goes up with condition, up to $235 for AU Type IIIs)

 

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The funny thing about the concept of value in an open market is that it's based solely on exactly that - what people believe something to be worth. It's just not possible for folks (who actively participate in the market) to believe something to be worth anything different than it is.

If you say coin X is only worth $75, but there are people willing to buy it for $150, it's worth $150. Regardless of any evidence/opinion/fact/price guide/etc. you have to prove that it's only worth $75. Conversely, if I were to claim that something was worth $150, and there wasn't anyone out there willing to pay more than $75 for it, I'd be wrong.

 

I had a couple of $1 gold coins that were real dogs. One [maybe 1853] had a decent obverse but the back had 3 nasty scratches, I took a dealer's offer of $90 for the coin.
The second $1 gold coin was ex-jewelry [ maybe 1851] and had a good enough obverse but the reverse had a small spot of solder. I walked it around at a few coin shows but the best offer was around $70 to $75. I foolishly paid $140 for it online at auction [not e-bay]. It was Charter Oak coin auctions and the guy doesn't show pictures of the reverse. By that time I had just about quit dealing with them and got sick of returning coins.
Threw it in a safe deposit box and forgot about it. How I eventually got out of it was to trade it plus $200 cash for a 1895-O dime in G-4. The dealer later said he sold it for $120.
So sometimes if you can't get a good cash offer for these problem pieces try trading them away.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with your above GDJMSP. A coin is worth what someone is willig to pay for it if that price is repeatable. Really no different than stocks, land and other items.

I may not think Google is worth much as a stock because it just doesn't seem tangible to me, yet others pay big money for it. Some people place a very high value on my land that is wooded with a creek while others see it as worthless because you can't farm it or run stock on it. Coins are exactly the same way.

I might say there is no way a 1794 large cent is worth $10,000 because it's only got 8 cents in copper in it, yet plenty of others see great worth in it.

My wife is brainwashed into thinking a Coach purse has value. I wouldn't give you $10 for it, but thousands of women will give her $200 all day if she'd sell it. Please Dear, sell just 1 or 2 or even 4 of them. You'll still have plenty and I could buy more coins then....LOL.

As far as slabbed coins, they do seem the carry a slightly better premium. Maybe not for you as you can grade and determine what is a details coins. Those that can't grade well see great value in buying a problem free grade and pay for the premium which isn't much, but it exists. It exists more in a form of being easier to sell. Give me 2 identical coins at the same price, one slabbed, one not. I'll buy the slabbed. The process of me choosing one over the other gives it value, even if not in $$. It's like buying the same house with one painted purple and one tan. The tan will appeal to more of a market thus it's a better house to buy in the long run.

 

Of course this is true. However, this thread is discussing small denomination gold coins, so when you state that "Common date gold coins graded as high MS63 will usually sell for spot plus about 10%," it stands to reason that you're making that claim about small denomination gold coins.

This is true. A single transaction doesn't establish value. A $75 dollar coin isn't worth $800 just because someone pays $800 for it. A coin that a significant number of people are willing to pay $800 for is worth $800, though, no matter what the grey sheet says, or what past auction results show, or what the Red Book says, or anything else.

I don't even know how to argue with you on this point. It's just blatantly false. If "the world is full" of people willing to pay $X for something, it's incontrovertibly worth $X. What, in your opinion, determines how much something is "worth" in a free and open market, if not the willingness of consumers to purchase a good at a certain price?

It absolutely lost value when you cracked it out of a slab. If nothing else, it lost liquidity, which makes it less valuable. There are less people willing to pay top dollar for a raw coin than a graded coin. That doesn't make it a worse coin, that doesn't make it even a less desirable coin, but presented two identical coins at the same price, one raw, one slabbed, the vast majority of buyers will opt for the graded one.

This is true for most things. Just because you think value has nothing to do with people's willingness to pay for something, doesn't mean that's the case - because that's a simple fact of basic economics, much like the age of the earth is a simple fact of geology. However, value is not a static matter of fact - the whole premise of value depends on the perception of the consumer.

 

$188 for a 2 1/5 that has a full grade? I doubt you could even get a $1 gold coin that is fully graded AU55 or higher for that. APMEX wants $250 for an uncertified liberty head AU G$1 and about the same for a princess. I'm no expert on what a common date $1 gold coin is, since they are all pre-1889 maybe there is no such thing? Their bulk prices are based on random years - they pick 'em, not you - it is one benchmark I suppose. But that's a heck of a lot more than 10% over spot. However, for a lot of common liberty double eagles there only seems to be a 5% premium for certification. Maybe the more gold, the less premium for certification or "collector value" or something like that.

 

GDJMSP said: ↑
The sad truth is that in the greater numismatic community no problem coin has more value than another just because it has more detail.
I was under the impression that with the very early US coins, say the 1790s or whatnot, a holed coin with great detail would be worth significantly more than a coin worn to the point of no detail?

I was wondering if I could get an answer to the above. Am I just way off base on my understanding of the old colonial coins? Admittedly I know very little.

 

Yes, thank you.

 

I would completely disagree with this comment. Sure, a problem coin is ALWAYS going to be worth less than a problem free example...but among problem coins the degree of damage and the wear plays a factor into how much the coin is worth. I do agree with you "details grades" are the TPGs way of answering to complaining collectors...but the wear on a coin does matter, even with a problem coin. A harshly cleaned 1909-S VDB with XF details is worth than one with G details assuming the coins are cleaned to about the same degree. How much are they worth? Well, that's up the buyer as problem coins are VERY hard to price...but I can guarantee the XF details example will sell for more than the G details.

This statement isn't entirely accurate...or at least it is somewhat misleading. When a coin is slabbed it is evaluated and accessed by a someone who is considered an "expert" in their field. Their opinion does have value due to their experience and thus having that opinion tied to the coin does add value to the coin. Is the COIN worth more inside the slab? No, the COIN is not...it's the same identical coin that was once raw. Nothing has changed. However, the package of the coin with the expert evaluation is worth more than the coin alone. Sales prices have shown this (with respect to PCGS and NGC). Slabbed coins sell on average for more than a raw coin. How much more? Depends on the coin. But, there is some value with the slab.

You are correct that the slab also makes the coin easier to sell.

 

Well said, CamaroDMD. Ah ha. The slab and/or CAC certification has a value of it's own. Kind of like the certification from an art expert confirming the origin of a painting. The painting hasn't changed, but value is added by the expert certification/authentication - (which as in some famous cases has been wrong) - but is usually reliable. With coins, like art, the value of certification seems most applicable, and desirable, for those with numismatic value/significance. I've gotten used to some dependence on TPG's and CAC to help me feel confident that a coin has original surfaces, etc., but I find the proliferation of common date, inexpensive coins in certification slabs kind of strange.

 

Great research! Thanks. Makes sense and is intuitively what I would have expected.

 

This is what I believe...and I base that belief in what I have seen when it comes to sales. Coins, like art, when authenticated and evaluated by an expert carry an additional premium because of that expert's evaluation. The coin has not changed...but as a package there is more there than just the coin.

Now, on some coins...this "package" may add a very minimal premium. For example, a 1880-S Morgan slabbed MS63...well that coin is extremely common. The premium added for the opinion and authentication is negligible. The person who submitted such a coin will undoubtedly lose money on it because the cost to slab the coin greatly outweighs any premium the slab may bring.

 

So...what you are saying is if I took two coins (let's say 1914-D Lincoln Cents), one is a problem free G4 and the other is a problem free XF45. I took these two coins and I harshly cleaned them in the EXACT same manner...you are saying they now have the exact same value? That is how I read your original post. Is that correct? If that is what you are saying, I disagree with you.

Based on what I have seen, the now details XF will still sell for more than the now details G. However, I do agree that a problem free G should normally sell for more than the details XF.

Based on what I have seen as far as sales prices...I don't have a subscription to the Greysheet...slabbed coins will sell for more money. That's simply the way it is today. There is a monetary value to the slab. The coin isn't worth more...but the coin with the expert opinion is. On low value coins (coins that probably shouldn't have been slabbed)...the difference is negligible. But, on coins of value it is not.

 

I'm pretty sure what he was saying is any problem coin will be worth less than any problem free coin, regardless of the condition and detail (other than the problem itself) of the two coins.

 

If that's the case...then I misinterpreted his original posting. If that's what he meant...as a general rule I tend to agree.

I read the following to mean...a G details harshly cleaned coin and a MS harshly cleaned coin (the same date/mm) have equivalent value. If I misinterpretation what Doug meant...then I'm cool with that.

 

I like these coins. Cleaned or not they are old, and they gold. That makes them winners to me. I hope one day to have one or two in my collection and I definitely wouldn't mind paying the price OP did.