8 reales Countermark 1804 Mexico city

That link I posted earlier today touches on that particular British scheme that was ruined by employing locals to run the operation.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

There's a guy named Robert Gurney that has been doing extensive research on this matter for an upcoming book. He began collecting contemporary counterfeit 8 reales a good 5 decades ago and has rounded up sources on what can be called the "Boston" type counterfeits, which are neither contemporary nor modern copies, but bullion pieces. The scenario he describes is similar to the 1780 Maria Theresa thalers. Not sure why is not active on this forum, but there are detailed analyses of many such pieces on coincommunity. A lot of the people who know about these types seem to be concentrated over there.

 

They are generally accepted as genuine at present, not many people know the difference.

I'm not sure if it's cool to post links to another coin forum? Just google "boston type" and "8 reales"

 

John Lorenzo (Colonialjohn) has previously advised that the Robert Gurney book should be out late this year. See: http://www.cointalk.com/threads/neat-counterfeit-find.32101/ - a summary of the book's contents is in the 15th post.

I can accept that fakes of the Spanish/Mexican 8 reales have been made - the question is how many and how detectable. I sse the book deals solely with the "portrait" type, which leaves the "cap & rays" category unaddressed. In T.V. Buttrey and Clive Hubbard's A Guide Book of Mexican Coins 1822 to Date, their comprehensive listings of the 8 reales has an occasional "contmporary counterfeit" annotation; I sort of assumed they were denoting Mexican made fakes, but I now realize that's not necessarily the case. One of the problems with identifying "cap & rays" counterfeits (provided they're not extremely crude or debased) is the really distinct die varieties that even genuine examples exhibit.

At the risk of getting off-topic, here're photos of one I first thought was clearly counterfeit, but now I'm not so sure. On the reverse, the Phrygian cap has a very flat aspect, and actually sits below the level of the rays. On the obverse, the cactus segments are completely disconnected from each other. So its appearance is atypical at best. But the coin's weight and ring are true.

 

Thanks Numimat , very interesting and very likely since the merchants were paying extra for 8 reales coins . Also if we did try to set up an official mint in California but would have to pay Mexico a 15% Royalty it would make sense that we do it on the sly . I hope his book comes out soon as the last good book on Trade dollars and trade coins for the Orient was John M. Willems book printed in 1959 and 1965 .

 

Sorry , my bad .

 

Best book I know of for the cap and rays types is the Riddel catalog published back in 1845, "A Monograph of the Silver Dollar". It is available in entirety on Google books. Unfortunately it only addresses the early types due to when it was published. http://books.google.com/books?id=YwAXAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=monograph of the silver dollar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uZrkUtfECLPisATNmYHABQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=monograph of the silver dollar&f=false

 

This is actually pretty typical for this date/mint. Normally the rays appearing to be somewhat detached from the cap would be a red flag but it seems to be normal for this one. Chalk it up to sloppy die making.

 

I came across this photo on the web quite by accident (I was actually researching something else) - can it be just a coincidence that it's countermarked "BOSTON"?

 

I believe this is a merchant countermark on a genuine coin. The Brunk catalog lists such a countermark.
BRandM would know more about this sort of thing.

 

These "Boston" stamps are known in at least two different sizes although of similar style. They appear on many different denominations of U.S. and foreign coins. The earliest is a 1797 Two-Reales, the latest an 1875 Seated Liberty Half Dollar. About 2/3 of them are struck on Large Cents, and the rest on Half Cents, a Dime, British Halfpenny, Mexican Eight-Reales, and an 1813 Italian Five-Lire. Quite a mix!
It's certainly an American issue, or issues, if more than one person stamped them. Brunk believes they were struck by a person or company and aren't a reference to the city of Boston per se. At one time he believed they might have been issued by the Boston Type & Stereotype Foundry in business 1817 until at least 1892, but I believe he no longer feels that way.
The stamp on the 1834 8-Reales Lucky Cuss posted is an example of the small stamp. The other one is much larger but, like I said, very similar in style.

Bruce