I would like to know how you can tell the difference in Artificially toned and Natural toned coins? I have seen some real beauties on here and other sites like Ebay but have no knowledge of which is which or how to tell. Is there definitive ways to spot AT coins? Thanks
No, there is not a way. It takes years to learn and no one will be right all the time or agree on a coin. Add in that folks are looking at images and you have a real mess on your hand. About all a person can do is learn what looks normal and what is not.
Larry is correct, it is a matter of experience and judgement. Nobody, not a TPG, not the best known coin expert in the world, not anybody can say with certainty that any coin is AT or NT. All they can do is guess and offer their personal opinion. Well, unless you are the person who did the artificial toning yourself.
When you see colors and patterns in the colors that you don't normally see, it's time to question it and decide if you will be happy with it at the price. I have several coins that I feel are AT but I'm good with the price I paid. I may not be happy when it comes time to sell them. Other will question them as well.
Would you mind posting some examples, preferably copper if you have any. Possibly explain some of the colors and patterns you see and why you think it may be AT. This is a GREAT thread that could really help a lot of us learn. Thanks! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Copper is crazy. There are so many colors. I bought this one about 25 years ago knowing that it had been messed with (cleaned and retoned). It cost me $40 but I fell in love with the clash on both sides and the cracks on the reverse. It was pretty and I had to have it. The coin is not a normal color for an MS Indian Cent.
The IHC appears to be natural to my eye, but your opinion is that it is a retone resulting from the cleaning? I've got a long way to go.... Regarding the half, it seems easier to spot solely based on age, as you had stated. The colors just don't look right. Thanks for posting these and your thoughts! Hopefully we'll get some more photos and discussion Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I guess you might like to see this one. It is a proof coin, and looks very AT to me. I bought it close to 2 years ago now, when I didn't have a firm understanding of toning. I think I paid $3, so it isn't a major loss, and I still think it is pretty.
That is a very nice looking coin. The toning looks splotchy. Is that somewhat of a giveaway in discerning AT vs NT? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There is a strange pattern on the obverse that practically has AT written on it. I never could persuade the camera to show it, but perhaps I will try it again in the future. There can certainly be splotchy toning that is natural. I don't know all of the generalities used to determine if something looks AT or NT. I'm still learning just as you are.
There's just something about the color purple that says AT to me. I am sure there are NO purple colors, but the bright, reflective purples and blues make me skeptical on any coin. Some people put chemicals on theirs, some heat them, and others run electrical current through it. As said above, if you like the coin and are not paying a premium for the toning, get it. I have bought a few that I was pretty sure we're AT, but got it for a good price and I liked it. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
How can they? They can't define with any degree of particularity what they're looking for in the first place.
The comments regarding certain colors being normal or commonly found on coins, while true in general, do not mean that other colors cannot or are not found on naturally toned coins. Anything that man can do to AT a coin, mother nature has already done. What I'm saying is that just because certain colors appear on a coin and those colors are not normally seen on coins of that type, that does not mean the coin is AT. And this is true of all colors on any coin. Now not everybody agrees with that and many will say that a coin is AT because they have never seen those particular colors on a particular coin. But the only thing that proves is that they have never seen it before, it does not prove that such coins do not exist on a particular NT coin. People tend to forget that there was a first time that they saw any color on any coin. But that didn't make them believe that the coin was AT because they had never seen one before. Can even experienced people, very experienced people, see strange or unusual colors or color combinations on a given coin ? 'Course they can. There is absolutely no doubt that some colors or combinations are rarely if ever seen on a given coin. But never underestimate the power of mother nature. Colors on coins are caused, by nature and by man, by certain chemicals either in the air or by direct contact coming into contact with a coin. And any chemical that man has access to, mother nature has had access to it for far longer. When you are trying to use your judgement and experience to determine if a coin is AT or NT, there are other things to base that judgement on besides how unusual it is to see certain colors on certain coins. What I'm saying is don't let the fact that you haven't seen something before skew your judgement. There's lots and lots of things you've never seen before.
Doug, what "other things" are you referring to? Is it all a matter of looking at several hundred/thousand coins and being able to tell what does and doesn't look right? Are there any dead give away signs to look for? Thanks!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, kinda, but they are hard to describe with words. But easy to see when you look at them, in person, in pictures not so much. Pictures can be very misleading, not just with toning but with anything, so you're not really sure exactly what you are looking at. And I'm not talking about doctored or juiced pictures either, I'm just talking about honest unedited pictures. For example, I've posted these pics several times as a way of explaining what I am talking about. The coin is NT, I took both sets of pics (same exact coin in both) within minutes of each other. The only thing I changed was to slightly change the angle of the lighting. But look at the difference in the pictures. See what I mean ? There are some AT jobs that are just a joke, the colors look like they were painted onto the coin. And those are easy to identify, if you know what you are looking at, if you don't, not so easy. For example, what exactly does painted onto the coin mean ? If 10 different people read that phrase it's a pretty good bet that at least 7 of them will have a different idea of what it means or looks like in their mind's eye. I know exactly what it means to me, but how do I explain that with words ? I really can't. It's kind of like trying to explain what a color looks like to a blind person - it can't be done. Some folks talk a great deal about color progression being the way to identify AT. And yes, colors do occur in certain progression. Problem is, one band of color can be so tiny (thin) that it cannot really be seen and to many it will look like it is missing. Also, natural toning can start, stop, and begin all over again repeating from the beginning. So you can have the color found at one end of the spectrum right next to the color found at the opposite end of the spectrum and it will look like the colors are out of sequence (proper progression) when they really are not. The list goes on. So yeah, there are some things that are a dead give away that toning is AT, but only to an experienced and trained eye. Many people, even very experienced people, are fooled into thinking that toning is AT when it is not, and into thinking that toning is NT when it is not. In fact the same person will often change his opinion when looking at the same exact coin on two different occasions. Learning to grade is tough, learning to identify problem coins is tough, learning to identify AT is tough, and they all require a great deal of experience to do any of them correctly. But the first two can be done with a good degree of certainty. Learning to identify AT from NT - cannot. (unless it is a very poor job)
In my opinion tarnish should never be dispositive on the issue of whether or not a coin should be entitled to a grade. What the tarnish did to the physical integrity of the coin is what should be dispositive on that issue. The mode of onset of the tarnish should be irrelevant. There’s a lot of money in maintaining these distinctions and that’s why we still have them. The TPGs have the final say because of them and dealers and “experts” and authors are made because of them. Collect what you like and don’t concern yourself with trying to be a detective on something as meaningless as the mode of onset of tarnish. Learn how to grade coins based on their physical condition, and you’ll do OK, and probably better than most.
