Someone please explain Morgan dollar grade

Is this a serious question???

 

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I guess in my mind, deceit is deceit, whether it's a coin or a house. Just because a coin is of lower value, doesn't mean the deceit is any less.

 

Yes.

From what you say, if the seller truly believes his coin is undamaged then you don't mind him selling it with the description of uncirculated. Clearly the coin's value if actually damaged is greatly diminished.

So if he truly believes his coin is not counterfeit, according to your logic why then should he have to disclose the TPG opinion he doesn't agree with?

 

Deceit is deceit.

You are confusing the difference between genuine disagreement and intentional deception.

 

The discussion was never about calling a potentially damaged coin UNC condition, or damage vs counterfeit. Seems like you are starting to twist things a little. The discussion is about damage vs no damage. I think I have made it clear already that I do not have a problem with someone who genuinely believes the label is incorrect. TPG's are not perfect. I've also said previously that I buy only from reputable sellers. We're not talking about an assessment from some schmuck that knows nothing about coins.

 

Not twisting : this was from one of your previous posts:

"Calling a coin problem free or UNC when you don't see anything wrong with it although a TPG labeled it damaged, I don't think that's unethical."

Regardless, I more or less see where you're coming from, although I still don't see the distinction between disbelieving a TPG damage grade and a TPG counterfeit grade. Although personally I would not be happy as a buyer with that seller's behavior, to each his own I guess.

 

Well, if you INTENTIONALLY leave out information that you know could otherwise change a buyers mind about purchasing the product. That is intentional deception. If the coin was left in the slab and the seller said, "pcgs says it is damaged but I honestly can't see it", that is genuine disagreement. Let the buyer decide with full disclosure whether or not to GAMBLE on the coin just as the OP did.

 

He's already been shown he said things he didn't and didn't respond. I agree with you, but I think he's done with the discussion.

 

I had to leave the house. I do other things besides chat on CoinTalk all day.

 

Okay I stand corrected. It's just a matter of semantics really. You know what I mean.

Even though I was away from my computer, I did give it some thought while on the road. The conversation has turned into debate at times, but I don't think either one of us is right or wrong. Just differences in perception.

For me, a coin that was graded counterfeit is much more serious than a coin that was graded damaged. Damage on a coin is usually much more apparent too. Not saying the counterfeit designation could not be a mistake also, but I wouldn't sell the coin until I do further evaluation (or not sell the coin at all) even if I felt the TPG made a mistake. I wouldn't do that. Just like I wouldn't sell a house with a potentially faulty foundation even though I felt the contractor made a mistake. I would either get that second evaluation or sell nothing. So, I expect any reputable dealer/seller to think this way also.

 

Why should the seller be hurt by a TPG's error? Saying "pcgs says it is damaged but I honestly can't see it", could very well lead to hurting the sellers chances of selling the coin or selling it at the price it should.

I agree you have to draw the line somewhere. I just don't agree that the line should be drawn at a seller should disclose a previous damage grade when the coin doesn't appear to have any damage. If the coin had been graded counterfeit, then I expect for the seller to disclose it, not sell it, or provide further information that suggests the counterfeit grade was an error. For some reason you two like to lump all situations into the same level of importance. Not every scenario is of equal importance.

 

Calling a damaged coin unc became a part of this discussion a few pages ago, or at least when the coin was cracked out without the clear intent to resubmit.

Perhaps you can tell us how you separate those who "genuinely believes the label incorrect" and those who simply wish to increase salability by removing a less than flattering label? I know and agree that TPGs are not perfect, and I also respect your seemingly anti-TPG attitude, but just because they do make mistakes, this should not free someone to hide behind their supposed or claimed opinion. To use the OP's coin as an example: he openly stated that he was hoping for a 66 or at least a 65, so this tells us that if truly confident in the coin, there should be little reason for him not to resubmit. An 1899-O in a PCGS or even NGC66 holder will almost certainly sell quicker and for a higher price than if it were raw, and should easily cover the cost of the resub.

As for only buying from reputable sellers... how often do you hear someone say that they buy from schlubs? Surely there are some that knowingly do, but most, including those who toss good money down the drain with ebay dreck peddlers, would tell you that they too only buy from the "good guys". As for "not talking about an assessment from some schmuck that knows nothing about coins", it doesn't matter because the reality is that it is often easier to make money knowingly fluffing dreck than it is to honestly describe. Do you truly believe that all or even most coin sellers (as opposed to dealers - long story) are going to willingly leave money on the table when they know full well that in today's market there is no shortage of so-called collectors who refuse or do not wish to learn about their hobby, yet are happy to be parted with their money? As an example, there is a certain ebay seller who touts his PNG membership, and over the years I've seen many a coin (mostly Seated material) sell on Heritage, Stack's, TT, etc in details/genny holders that magically appear raw in his listings within a few days. Should we assume that this guy cracked not to up the potential selling price, but has done so over and over again because his opinion just happens to differ from that of the TPG? I could clearly see that most of these coins were problems in the auction house photos, yet in his the problems magically became less obvious, but he’s a PNG member so he must be reputable, right (har har)? This is just one example of many, and I could go on and on, but if you know anything about this as a business and or just human nature, my point should make perfect sense.

Not that long ago there was another seller who was offering better date/condition Morgans, and in his descriptions was making them out to be quite nice. However, if you looked closely at his photos, the coins (which appeared to have problems) were still in TPG holders, yet this person made no mention of this. Why do you suppose someone would do such a thing? Again, even though problems, these were mostly better date or condition coins, so could it be that they were wanting their cake and to eat it too? If the coin sold at a profitable level, crack it and hope for the best, but if not, they still had them in the problem holders which, at the very least verified the coins as being genuine. Would a person like this do such a thing because of a simple difference in opinion or could it be that the only thing that mattered was what went into their pocket?

Please understand that I am not one to blindly drink the kool-aid, and there are many gentlemen whose opinions I place more weight in than that of any TPG. However, for every straight and honest guy, there are ten others that would steal their mother's last dollar if it would benefit them. There are many that use coins as a way to easy money; let's be honest here... it does not take great intelligence or talent to crack a few genny holders and offer to one of the countless ignorant coin buyers out there today.

You know the old saying.... "Opinions are like ........, everybody has one".



-My apologies for the poorly written and rambling response; free time is in short supply today.

 

You need to stop worrying about what TPG say, and use your own grading skills. These jokers grade a coin one day and call it damaged the next day, and im sure vice versa.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1815-Near-G...ns_US_Individual&hash=item2a368e3a8b#viTabs_0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1817-1c-wit...06?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2333d5048a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1846-1-ANAC...45?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item23342c00a9

 

Good post.

Obviously there are plenty of bad apples who are only looking to make money any way they can. There's no way to know for sure what someone may be thinking. Therefore I can not tell you when someone might be genuine when say they don't believe the label. However, I grade sellers mainly on my past dealings with them. On eBay I will look at a sellers feedback, especially upon first purchase, but I rely more on my past buying experiences with them. I have found some to be honest and accurate in their past descriptions. It's not a perfect system, and they could change their ways and screw you, but I find it to be the most reliable way.

 

Exactly!

There are moments when the jokers are useful, but most of the time they're a sham.

Collectors/buyers need to learn and use their own judgement. And not rely on the jokers as the be all end all.

 

No sending it in twice , it would make my profit non existant.anyhoo I sold it today to a dealer. Its out of my hands and my conscience is clean he is the one I showed originally to for advice. Thanks guys good convo.