Intact Hoard for Sale : Mixed Feelings

Think I have heard stories similar to this in Vietnam and China.

Old Vietnamese and Chinese cash coins were "mined" in terms of hundreds of kilos, if not tonnes and over the years, sources of such hoard have greatly dimished. They are normally found by farmers in the field.

So what do you think they have become? Scrap metal of course. As most of them have corroded beyond recognization or were melted down due to lack of care factor - the only way to counter this is to offer prices that are better than melt.

Far enough, it is demand that drives up such activities but at the same time - a lot of times are people who are living on the edge and any extra cash that they can get is something they will not miss. Do they know much about coins? Yes, but only current currency, not ancients. Education is the key here.

Sure enough, you can always talk about laws etc but personally laws cannot cover all activities.

 

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Hey, I guess I resemble that description.

I feel independent numismatists have done more with numismatic evidence to further the study of Ancient history than any museum. That said, a methodical approach to any hoard can potentially be valuable.

Let's go back to the Frome Hoard. Here's a review I wrote a few years back at another (non-numismatic) site about a book about the Frome Hoard:
http://www.unrv.com/book-review/the-frome-hoard.php

Unfortunately, I think the stellar work of Sam Moorhead and Rodger Bland at the British museum is the exception and not the rule. All too often, Ancient hoards disappear from academic study and public view.


guy

 

I wasn't trying to insult you Guy. In a perfect world I would love to have more hoard information. However, its precisely because they blame "coin collectors" for desecrating dig sites that we are in the position we are in. Bad laws, and good people driven to desperate measures.

 

Sometimes small pots containing all of someones small personal belongings are buried at time of trouble or when going away for a long period. I know theres a very small chance of this, but any chance means a museum would not let it be sold like this.

 

British found coin hoards are all analyzed thoroughly by experts at the BM and are treated the same way as the Frome hoard with layer sampling etc etc. They work to the same set of guidelines regardless of hoard size.
When I found my hoard it was meticulously examined and all coins where possible were identified and deposit date estimated based on the coins present, and the added difficulty of some 'contaminated'material. (probably just random field finds mixed in.) The hoard report I received is extensive and very detailed and I praise them for that.
The only thing I can fault them on is their heavy handed cleaning techniques where ID'ing a coin is more important to them than preservation, especially when they seem to have already made the decision not to purchase the hoard! The Frome hoard was also cleaned in a heavy handed manner with lye..(horrible stuff)
The point I make is that if they have the hoards they will treat them all the same and much information will be gathered, but if they just appear on the market(albeit from another country, so different treasure acts and so on) then nothing at all can be gained from it. It becomes an interesting, but historically worthless piece of metal.

 

If I am Roman and I bury coins in my back garden, then that is an archaelogical site isnt it? Its a Roman homestead or small settlement. It may not be the local colloseum, but information just as important can be gleaned from my house about my lifestyle as can be found at the colloseum. The discovery of a hoard (like mine) in an area where absolutely NO Roman material has ever been found and NO traces of Roman occupation recorded, can begin to rewrite the history books. It was not near a villa, Roman road, or other site, but we are beginning to examine this area more closely with geophys and other technology at our disposal and we may well find the villa or settlement soon. This would have never happened had we not disclosed the hoard.
So I tend to agree with Volante, we as collectors all have to bear some responsibility for the coins we own and seek,,as a large percentage will not have been recorded and concentrations of coins equals settlement in my experience. I know something about both ancient coins and archaeology and all coins and antiquities I find are recorded with the Portable antiquities scheme so that the evidence is not lost. I liaise regularly with the local museum (I live 20 minutes from Frome) and discuss coin concentrations and pottery finds with them.
I shudder when I think of the armies of detectorists out in Eastern Europe and the Far east, who in their hundreds walk through fields pulling out everything and sending it West to The US and Western Europe.
I will not stop collecting, but I am honest enough to admit that our collecting has to be encouraging the illegal digging going on in Eastern Europe and the far east. Our coins may be just a bonus extra bit of cash for those looters seeking the treasure, but who can deny that is what we are doing? If everyone stopped buying ancients, and i mean everyone and noone bought antiquities any more, then it would stop. The diggers are poor people after a living, so I know why they do it.
Will my stopping dealing/collecting single handedly stop illegal looting/unrecorded finds heading West?? No. Will I stop ? No. But I am not sensible and honest enough to accept it is not helping the situation one bit and every unrecorded coin(by unrecorded I mean find location), is history lost and will encourage the exporters to keep exporting.

 

I think that's an honest assessment of the matter, Pete. One of my areas of interest is coinage of the Arabian Peninsula, and I've bought quite a few Nabataean pieces from dealers in Israel and UAE. The dealers I buy from are legit in the sense that they process all the coins I get through the governmental antiquities export authorities. Sometimes the paperwork takes a long time - it's often months before I receive a coin I've purchased.

But where do these dealers get their coins in the first place? Metal detectorists, where else? I would love to know the find locations of many of the pieces I own, but that information is sadly lost. In a perfect world, all those locations would have been recorded with the discovery of the coins. As a collector, do I encourage this dynamic? Absolutely, yes. But if there was no market for the coins, do you think they would do anything else but continue to rot in the ground? Do you think the various governments in the ME would send out thousands of archeologists to comb their lands and accurately record the discovery of every coin?

It is what it is, and I believe that some numismatic scholarship is better than none. Who cares about their coins more than the collectors? Who studies them and conserves them and analyzes them more than the collectors? If it wasn't for us, ancient coins would all end up in the scrap pile.

 

I agree, the positive side to our collecting is the detailed collective 'catalogue' which now exists due to our attribution and photograhy.
As far as them rotting in the ground...they have done a pretty good job in the past 2000 years, so i doubt a few more will hurt. On that point though, and contradicting myself,, with the increased use of fertilisers on arable land the coins are becoming badly damaged in the ground, much more so than on unfarmed land. I find this with detecting...the worst coins are found on land owned by farmers who put chicken or duck muck on their fields. If i find a Roman in a paddock or grassland then its generally very nice as it hasnt been a) chucked about with the plough and b) rotted by the fertiliser.
Luckily with most of my coin sales and finds I can say where the coin was found to about a metre accuracy due to GPS.

 

My point was that is the antiquities trade, not the coin trade, that might encourage looting in some countries. This is why I really do not collect them much, unless I know there is a very common item like base pottery. Coins, on the whole, are not found at important sites but by their nature at remote sites.

You are arguing from the position of being in the one country which has good, solid, reasonable laws. If every country followed Britain, coin collectors would LOVE it. Unfortunately, most other countries actually have laws actively discouraging everything you mentioned.

 

Coin hoards are generally found near settlement, settlements are detected for the coins and the artefacts. Settlements are important archaeological sites. These relic hunters and looters target the areas which used to be densely polulated as much as remote temple sites etc. because that is where people were dropping and burying things. These people do their research as well as any archaeologist before they choose a field to sweep, and they are after coins and artefacts. If you read articles on detecting in serbia and other countries it all goes on in and around town sites, which had their temples and their baths etc., but mostly just lots of houses and commercial buildings. That is where our coins come from. It is not possible to classify these looters as two groups, the artefact hunters and the coin hunters. They are all in it for what they can get.

 

Update: no bids.

Available for post-auction purchase, $24,675 USD

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=3030&lotNo=23862

 

I knew it wouldnt sell. Too pricey for a chunk of bronze and they didnt do themselves any favours taking one away and cleaning it badly to give an example of what may be inside. I bet theres some lovely coins in the middle. Not worth 50$ each though.