1798? DRAPED BUST CENT.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by coins776, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. coins776

    coins776 no title

    49b.jpg 49c.jpg 1798? any opinions?
     
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  3. dave4dawg

    dave4dawg Member

    It's a middle-late die state of the S-185 (1798). Evident diagnostics - obverse crack from above eye through Y to rim. Crack from throat/neck junction to rim in front of bust tip. Reverse clashing right top wreath leaf tip to OF.
     
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  4. coins776

    coins776 no title

    thanks for the reply and the information about the coin.
     
  5. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I'm with Dave4dawg with the attribution except I'd say terminal die state because a crack or chip or notably strong clash mark develops late from the point where the neck meets the bust almost to the crack of state VI at almost a 90 degree angle and I think I see evidence of that (not mentioned in Breen but observed on a similar terminal state example) while the rim crumbling over I(C) cannot be seen due to wear.

    I'm not certain that the "damage" in the right obverse field is all post mint either. It may be a more advanced state of deterioration in the terminal die state. A previously unseen CUD similar to that on Sheldon's Obv 9 of 1797? Maybe? Maybe not. It's hard to tell in this condition.

    But look closely at the comp coin in the same location as this coin's "damage."

    This is the one I found.
    http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1174&lotNo=3202#Photo
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
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  6. coins776

    coins776 no title

    thanks for the reply and all of the info. about the coin. if the coin is the die state that you mentioned, would it have any premium value?
     
  7. dave4dawg

    dave4dawg Member

    The coin has quite a bit of wear and coupled with photos as an attribution guide it's difficult to determine the exact die state. The crack from the neck/throat junction develops in the earlier middle states and strengthens into almost two planes and into the hair in the latest die states. Additionally several other branch cracks develop in the left upper and lower fields in the later states. Possibly some are visible on your coin in-hand. The latest known state (what Breen calls VIII) has a reverse rim break/crack at CA in AMERICA. The late or latest die state is not rare as the die deterioration advanced rather rapidly. The late die states are always cool. There is no premium for the terminal die state of the S-185, except by personal preference. It's quite possible that this is a later-latest die state as the throat crack looks rather heavy - the area around CA on the reverse is not clear enough in the photo/or is too worn to determine the latest die state for me. So without see more evidence I'm sticking to middle late to late. I would cede the latest die state to Marshall if I could see a bit more - but I play it safe.

    The S-185 is not known to have an obverse CUD, nor bulge, cracks, raised planes, or retained CUDs in the area left of the lower curls which would precede a CUD. Noyes' latest die states known and illustrated in NumiStudy (illustrating most high grade known examples that exhibit excellent detail) show no evidence of any obverse deterioration in the lower left obverse - only advanced cracking in the right fields and portrait in already known states. There's just no smoking gun evidence to support a CUD. I would attribute the lack of detail around the lower area to wear.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
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  8. dave4dawg

    dave4dawg Member

    Oops.. nothing like repeating oneself
     
  9. dave4dawg

    dave4dawg Member

    A correction to my post above

    "Additionally several other branch cracks develop in the left upper and lower fields in the later states." should say upper RIGHT and lower fields.
     
  10. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I agree that the condition makes the die state determination a speculative venture. Sometimes we have to live with uncertainty. But we can categorically state it is not an early die state.
     
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