ID Challenge!! 1831 bustie adding to the $50 bustie set.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by mrweaseluv, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. mrweaseluv

    mrweaseluv Supporter! Supporter

    yup yup decided to make it a challenge, I am posting these pics on 2 forums at the same time with a request of what Overton# we have here. Not offering a prize other then the pride of your forum in beating the other (besides I'm a broke/cheap bastich) Anyhoo here she is... Good Luck and Have fun :D
    1831o.jpg 1831r.jpg
     
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  3. mrweaseluv

    mrweaseluv Supporter! Supporter

    PS will post answer once I have it in hand and can get to the book in the library.
     
  4. BigTee44

    BigTee44 Well-Known Member

    Your library has one of those books?!?!? Lucky!! Mine couldn't even get one from another library.
     
  5. mrweaseluv

    mrweaseluv Supporter! Supporter

    Yeah we had an old coin collector in the area donated his whole collection of reference books a couple years back, others they have bought as well, is nice for a small town like mine, the library is 90% donations.
     
  6. CBJesse

    CBJesse Capped Bust Fanactic

    Finally, another Bustie thread... I was worried you guys had forgotten about them! Anyway, your Bust Half, in my opinion, an 1831 O-118, R-3 ( previously an R-4, but downgraded in the 4th edition). Nice pickup, looks to be a nice and original.

    Jesse
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
  7. mrweaseluv

    mrweaseluv Supporter! Supporter

    possibly all we determined when I last looked was obverse die J (o 117 118 and several others) will check now but you may have it....
     
  8. mrweaseluv

    mrweaseluv Supporter! Supporter

    looks like you got it if it checks out to be the 118 ;D
     
  9. CBJesse

    CBJesse Capped Bust Fanactic

    Hmm.. not quite sure what you mean, as the 1831 O-118 marriage is a pairing of Obverse 11 and Reverse M. The reverse was more difficult to attribute, with the rotated image.

    Jesse
     
  10. CBJesse

    CBJesse Capped Bust Fanactic

    What other forum was this posted on, if I may ask?

    Jesse
     
  11. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Just a guess but Numissociety? :)
     
    mrweaseluv likes this.
  12. CBJesse

    CBJesse Capped Bust Fanactic

    I can't access Numissociety anyone, I just get a 404 Web error. I can only access on another network, no computers on my home's network can get on. You wouldn't know a fix, would you?

    Jesse
     
  13. mrweaseluv

    mrweaseluv Supporter! Supporter

    yup yup N$ and my screwup I was reading the 117 not the 118. Looking at the indicators described for the 118,
    (1) The date has tall 1's with full serifs. CHECK
    (2) Die lines in the shape of a fingerprint are usually visible below star 1. This I don't see
    (3) Line 2 of stripe 6 extends well below the shield margin. SemiCheck (pic not great there but I think I see it)
    (4) On most specimens there is a fine die break joining the top of UNITED. This I don't see at all but, the 2 examples of 118 at N$ don't show it either in the pics so may only be visible when in hand.

    I'm not saying your wrong Jesse, I'm still very new to Busties and know it. I'm asking to learn since I don't have the books and was working from the sellers pic's and the bustie forum over at N$. I haven't posted much about it here on CT but this is the 9th addition to the "$50 bustie set" and learning more and more as I go :D The part that scares me is I already see a later "finer" collection of busties in my future :D
     
  14. CBJesse

    CBJesse Capped Bust Fanactic


    Not problem, I love talking about the attribution process. Here are the steps I took to attribute the coin.

    1) Make a list of all die marriages with a similar T-I position, in this case, the following were listed, O-102, O-112, O-117, O-118, O-119, O-116, O-108, and O-114.
    2) Begin to eliminate die marriages that do not match the characteristics of the coin in question, for this you can use date position, S7 to Cap position, star to dentil position, A-A relation, C to stem relation and others. After a few minutes, I had it down to O-118 and O-119.
    These die marriages share an obverse (and these are the only two using this obverse die), so the first thing I did was confirm the obverse die using star to dentil positions and the date positions relative to the other numerals as well as the dentils. I then had it confirmed as Obverse 11 and all I needed to do was decide whether it was Reverse M, N or neither ( in this case, I would have to restart the process).
    3) I began comparing Reverse N to your coin and found differences, particularly in the C to stem and letter to dentil positions.
    4) At this point, I had it down to O-118 but I had to confirm, so I compared characteristic of your example with know examples of the die marriage and the characteristics (letters, scroll, A-A, C to stem, denomination), matched up. Then I check the letters to make sure they lined up with the dentils correctly and they did. To be absolutely positive, it would need to be in hand, but from what I can see in the picture I believe it is an O-118.

    About 2 and 4 in your post, this is where you have to be careful about the Overton work, while it is a great reference work and Overton was a great researcher, there is still much room for improvement.
    In references like Federal Half Dimes and Early United States Dimes, you'll notice that there is a description for the die marriage followed by a separate section, where the die cracks, breaks, chips, etc. that occurred on the die are described in the order that they occurred. This is how it should be, in my opinion, because stars, letters, dentils, etc will always be in the same place, but die cracks and the like may or may not be present due to the die state and lapping. Though, it would be a gargantuan task, considering the sheer number if CBH die marriages. This is why when Overton mentions a die crack or die lines/ scratches, it must be taken with a grain of salt because the piece you have may have been struck using those pair of dies but before the die crack occurred or because it is a light die crack it may have worn off.

    I would check for the die crack, when you get the piece in hand, it may just not be visible in the picture. It would certainly help to confirm the die marriage of the piece if it was present.

    Good luck on your collection of Busties, it is a great series with lots to be learned and plenty to do!

    Jesse
     
    green18 likes this.
  15. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    I like your style Jesse.........:)
     
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  16. mrweaseluv

    mrweaseluv Supporter! Supporter

    Thank You Jesse :D
     
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