Is It Unethical to Not Disclose Knowledge to Dealer?

The irony is winners lose more than losers because they view their losses as painful lessons. While losers crawl into their victum muck pit. Winners don't need to to be given a second chance, they give it to themselves. "Embrace the pain and you win this game." Revolver

 

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I don't think what the OP did was unethical. I see it this way. Pawn shop owners know that some coins and other items that come into their store could be worth a lot of money. If they were unable to evaluate items and price them appropriately, they would not be in business very long. They do this every single day. With the amount of items that come into their stores, I'm sure they are often overwhelmed with items. Therefore, I would think they "triage" items, for a lack of better words. They probably seperate items into the ones they will look into more, the ones they have a good idea of their value already and the ones they will put a price on without researching. They know by doing this they may let something valuable slip through, but this is just part of the business. I would assume it is similar to bargain bins at a coin shop. I'm not a coin dealer, but I would guess they don't have time to go through every lincoln cent, or any other coin series, in their store. They know something valuable might make its way into the bargain bin, but they decide that risk is acceptable when compared to the amount of time it would take to look for varieties. If you decided to tell the dealer about the value of the coin, does that mean the dealer should contact the person they purchased it from and so on?

I think it would be different if it was a little old lady, someone trying to sell a deceased relatives collection, a YN or someone new to the hobby trying to learn. People that go into a store to sell their items place their trust in a person who is suppose to be professional. This professional could lie to them and tell them their items a worth much less than what they really are, but that means they are lying. They are violating the trust of a customer, which is not only wrong, but it is bad for business in the long run. Anyone trying to take advantage of a YN or someone new trying to learn is just wrong. Yes, they should do research, but they are learning. They look to more knowledgable people to learn. It's just bad for the hobby to do this. It's like picking on someone weaker than you. Now I'm not saying a customer has no ethical obligations. I'm just saying there is less burden on the customer. A customer should not cheat a store or steal, but they do not work for they store and are not paid to share their knowledge. If I saw a million dollar coin sitting in a store but priced as a common coin I would probably feel obligated to tell the store. In doing so, I think the store should share part of the sale with the person who saved them from missing out on a once in a lifetime deal. I think it would be the decent thing to do. The OP's situation was not like any of these and was perfectly acceptable.

 

I don't know if it's unethical or not. There are coin collectors on this website who said they intentionally placed rare coins in places for people to pick up. Elvis Costello went to multiple record stores and put cds with unreleased material on them just to reward the people who still collect vinyl. I've been in situations where I've pointed out the deal I was getting, and the seller basically said yeah, I was trying to help you.

So I agree with the other posters. If it's a regular guy selling a collection of something I'll point out if he's selling himself short. But even then, I've sold stuff for quick cash knowing I was giving people one heck of a deal.

 

My LCS shop told me to cherry pick him - he knows that will keep bringing me(or others back). As for the Pawn shop - you owe them nothing. I am always trying to cherry pick off ebay and heritage.

 

I agree that cherrypicking is fair game.

I would also say the way your reacted to the comments in the other thread, both in that thread and by opening this one, was the opposite of stoicism.

 

The Michigan State Numismatic Society has one code of ethics that applies to everyone: dealers, collectors, investors, researchers, exhibitors, judges, truck-unloaders, and carpet-sweepers.

http://www.michigancoinclub.org/ethics.html

 

If it's someone outside the hobby or market, yes, you need to be honest and up-front, even after the fact. You can't take advantage of people.

Dealers and shop owners don't fall into that category. The burden of research and knowledge is on them. If they don't know their inventory cold, it's their problem.

 

I believe over 90% of coin collectors view cherry-picking as acceptable. Personally, I think without cherry-picking much of the thrill in the hobby is taken away. Why is it not acceptable to gain, in a free market, in a transaction due to superior knowledge? Who decides what prices are just? As market bubbles have shown, markets are not rational, and even if a buyer pays only a fraction of the price for an investment the buyer is still taking a risk with his money. There is no objective "price" at which items should sell at any particular time (this is a tangent, though). On an ethical level, shouldn't businesses that are too lazy to research their own merchandise be punished? The idea that oral or written contracts can be negated because someone did not do proper research beforehand is ludicrous.

But again, I'm speaking to the choir composed of 90%+ of collectors.

 

This thread was necessary for me to clarify my concerns about the ethics in the hobby. It was not merely to point out another person's self-righteousness. I feel no animosity towards the other person at this point. I understand other people might have been unreactive to being called a swindler or thief in a forum. Maybe that is the ideal behavior. But at the least, isn't there room to discuss the ethics involved? By the way, without any ethical grandstanding on your part, what would you have done in this situation? I'm genuinely curious.

 

The point, which I believe others have brought up, is that the dealers are not being "punished". They just missed out on an opportunity to capitalize.

I know I have read older threads where multiple dealers have said, or have been quoted as saying "It isn't worth my time to check the silver I buy for varieties anyhow, so customers are welcome to it."

In my opinion, anyone who buys and sells coins has absolutely no leg to stand on if a customer notices something they don't and capitalizes. The dealer still bought and sold at prices they were comfortable with.

As has been mentioned before, it is a different situation if there is an obvious mistake. I'm probably more inclined than most that, depending on the mistake (how obvious and the difference in $), the customer does not have an obligation to point it out. Goodwill created with the store, etc. is another question.

 

Assuming by situation you mean what that other poster said, I would have responded "You're welcome to your opinion. I feel it isn't wrong/thievery/whatever you called it for reasons A), B), and C). Thanks."

I do agree though that it is an interesting question in general, although in my opinion it is pretty clearcut. It seems the majority feel that way as well (largely agreeing with you).

 

Even if you're solely a collector, you're involved in the business from the moment you buy or trade for a coin with someone other than your grandfather. It's best we all treat each other fairly and respectfully so we can all have positive experiences. But at the same time, we have to be aware of the fact that we're probably going to get jobbed one day, be it our own fault or the fault of some dealer. It then becomes our job to resist the urge for payback by adopting their methods. Cherrypicking is not one of those methods. It's fun, challenging, rewarding, and educational!

 

[quote="jolumoga, post: 1828624, member: 417 The idea that oral or written contracts can be negated because someone did not do proper research beforehand is ludicrous.
[/quote]

I wonder if can even be called a contract?

 

On further thinking about this, I CAN see as a dealer being slightly annoyed if a customer came in constantly and ONLY cherrypicked.

It is one thing to come in once every six months and check for bargains and another thing to come in once and a week and only buy where you are making a profit. At least occasionally make some normal purchases as well so you are truly a customer, and not just a user.

If a dealer has a rapport with a customer, gives them time, discounts, etc., and I was that dealer I'd also be a little miffed if my customer spotted something and didn't share the wealth.

Those things being said though, I still don't think there is anything unethical or stealing about it, whatsoever. Also pawn shops - absolutely anything goes. "Rob" them blind.

 

The pawn shop owner has X amount of money invested in the coin. Business is dependent on a circulating inventory at a modest reasonable profit, not stored in a warehouse until the day someone wishes to pay 5X for an item. I have never met a pawnshop owner who didn't check coin prices before he bought a coin, likewise resale prices of watches, old guitars, fishing reels, etc., etc. I am pretty confident he/she knew the maximum potential resale value of the coin, probably when he first issued a pawn or bought it. Issue is he had X dollars invested in it. You offered him X+ a small profit. That you made more profit for yourself is fine and dandy. What is important to him is that you come back and buy more of his inventory.

 

My local dealer knows that if you come in to cherry pick, you might see something that interests you and you pick that up instead or also. I honestly think they want you to come into the shop - because they certainly can't sell you anything if you don't come in. They do some ebay auctions, but nothing else online. Even if you only plan to cherry pick - got to start some where. I can see where some dealers would get upset about it.

 

If someone expects me to buy overpriced stuff or junk coins I don't need just so they won't think I was only cherrypicking the items worth buying, they will be disappointed with me. I shop for bargains. If it isn't a bargain, I won't be buying it.

 

There is nothing wrong with this attitude, but do you feel a dealer is obligated to continue having you as a customer?

 

Most big coin shows have guidelines on manners. One is to not sit at a dealer's table cherrypicking. But that's because at a show you're taking up one of 2 chairs they pay for, plus you're blocking display cases from being viewed by others. At a shop, you can usually find a chair out of the way and not take up all the dealer's time and space.

 

It is not possible for a buyer to be unethical to purchase.