Ancients: When mint state is not good enough - Memmius denarius

I bought this coin because it was cheap and an example of a flan weight adjustment - one of my even stranger specialties. When the coin arrived, I decided that it was about as close to mint state as any of my Republican denarii but we would have to invent a new grading system to account for all the downsides of this coin. May I introduce an 87 BC Roman Republican denarius of Lucius and Gaius Memmius, sons of Lucius, Galleria in glorious MS12 condition.


Lets start with the good points. The obverse has a clear face of Saturn with his attribute, the harpa (an agricultural tool). The reverse has all but one letter (the initial L) of the moneyers' names which seems good until you realize that this L is needed to show the coin is a rare example of a coin issued by two brothers. The coin has no wear of any consequence but was so weakly struck that the triple flan adjustment gouges on the reverse were in no way erased and the overly thin area of the flan completely wiped out Saturn's hair simply by not having enough metal in that region. Note that the horses heads and rump have a flat top indicating a weak strike rather than a rounding as would have been more likely had the coin been worn to this degree. This ends the 'good points' section.

The bad: This coin is an ordinary biga reverse except the biga is driven by Venus who is accompanied by a flying Cupid. Neither of them made it on the flan to a degree that allows identification. The coin was a special issue produced from silver supplied by the Senate as shown by EX SC below Saturn's head. If you look closely, you might just see the tip tops of the XSC but no one would see that if they did not know the type. Several dies were used for this issue and these were marked by a system of dots and a letter under Saturn's chin. If you look really closely, you might see a trace of a dot or two but there is no way to guess which this is unless you can match the die to a better coin. This is, to me, particularly sad since this issue quite often had the letter cut backwards making it unusual.

What we have here is a not common coin (not rare either) with a portrait of a god not everyone has in their Republican collection but that is about all that the coin has going for it other than being pretty much in the same condition it was when it was struck. Except for Saturn and the reverse legend, almost nothing survived the combination of the severe pre-striking flan weight adjustment gouges (which we have discussed here before) and the weak strike. When it comes to collectability this nearly mint state coin would be beaten easily by most coins worn to fine. I got it on eBay for the opening bid and am probably the only person out there that would accept the gouges. After discovering all the other shortcomings, I suspect I should have held out for the seller to pay me to take it.

Now is the time for you to post your examples of this same type (not just any Republican). This type was copied from an issue of the father Lucius Memmius so I'd like to see those also if you have them. OK, lets call for other Saturn heads or coins with a harpa as well just to pump up the numbers of coins added to this thread. How many will we see?

 

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Interesting information, as usual. I have no coins to contribute but will watch and learn.

 

ahaha => Doug, you had me at "harpa" ... but as you know, I just posted my good ol' Perseus & Medusa coins!!

Hmmmm? ... well, I found a whole bunch of examples with Mars and Jupiter, but sadly, I could not find an example with Saturn (which immediately makes me want to run-out and find a hot example!!) ... man, I need to buy more coins!!

Oh, I almost forgot => super cool new coin ... the flan weight-adjustment info is very interesting (thanks for today's lesson)

 

The harpa on the Perseus coin and the one carried by Saturn on the common Gallienus is a different shape tool than on the Memmius but I am not fully schooled on harpa variations.

 

KINGS of MACEDON. Philip V, Æ22
Uncertain mint in Macedon
Struck circa 183/2-179 BC
221-179 BC
Diameter: 22 mm
Weight: 6.63 grams
Obverse: Bearded head of Herakles right, wearing lion skin
Reverse: Harpa; ΔΙ monogram above; all within wreath.
Reference: Mamroth, Bronzemünzen 25a; SNG Alpha Bank 1116-9; SNG München 1186-1189
Other: dark brown patina

 

I like your new grading system. MS12 huh? I've got a few of those from Gallienus, Tetricus, etc.

 

I have always said that the number system as we see it in US coins suffers from too much inconsistency to be used for ancients where wear is a relatively minor part of whether a coin is desirable or not. US coins rarely leave the mint at less than MS60 but ancients often started life fine at best. US collectors live for the difference between MS63 and MS64 but how often do you see degrees of VF or F or even recognition that a MS69 coin with a touch of wear can be better looking than a similar one which never was better than MS60 but both are now EF. Does a MS60 have any chance of becoming an AU58 or is that grade more likely to be the result of a MS68 someone spent once? Why do we never see F11 or 17? In ancients, there are a hundred levels of each letter grade step. My Memmius is a good example of a coin with F12 details but F implies wear that the coin does not have. It is, IMHO, a perfect MS12.

 

Doug,
I would like to break your guidance about the coins that you would like to see in this thread and add a Republican coin of my own that has also seen very little or no wear since it left the mint but was left a little below perfection by the manufacture process.

L Papius Denarius Serratus
Obv:– Head of Juno Sospita right, wearing goat skin tied under chin. Behind head, Compass
Rev:– Gryphon running right; in ex., L. PAPI.; in field, Drill
Minted in Rome from . B.C. 79.
Reference(s) – RSC Papia 1. RRC 384/1. RCTV 311.
Symbol variety – RRC 204. Babelon -. BMCRR -
3.85g. 20.41 mm. 180 degrees

It doesn't have those fascinating adjustment gouges but does have a severely off-centre and uneven strike.

 

Cool photos, Martin ... awesome


"Finally" => collecting those 200 Papius has become useful!!

 

Hey => is there a Papius with a Harpa?


Oh brother, I know that you're gonna search for it!!

 

That edge shot really shows the problem when that coin was made. It is twice as thick on the one side as on the weakly struck other. Perhaps we all can remember a time using a sledge hammer and completely missing the spike? This is another 'nice' example of terrible workmanship.

 

You guys sure do have some crappy coins.

 

This forum is in dire need of a ROFLMAO emoticon!

Looks like the hammer hit at a very oblique angle.

 

Had one in our old forum software, new one has removed tons of them.

 

Yah => I would even pay a couple of bucks membership if they upped their emoticon inventory (ummm seriously, why don't we have access to a 1000/endless of 'em?)

 

Umm actually, I guess chrsmat71 and I usually find enough examples that the point is moot ... never-mind, carry on

 

BOOM!

it's interesting to me that the relief is higher on the "skinny" side of martins coin that the thick side..i would have guessed the other way around.

 

The hammer/die was off center and obliquely angled or struck obliquely, moving that metal full into the recesses of that part of the die thinning that part of the flan (fully struck devices, thinner flan on that side)-- and failed to apply pressure to the other side, which remains thicker and failed to fill the die recessess (the weakly struck half). Depending on the temper of the flan, the oblique blow might also move metal to the less forcefully struck portion, making it even thicker.

Looking at Martin's coin again, I do think some of the metal moved and thickened that part. See how the coin is oval rather than round? Like rolling out pie dough

 

oh yeah...that makes sense.

 

dang....why do i keep double posting?? sorry again.

 

I am now a bit confused? ... I may actually have a Saturn?

=> I bought this coin with the understanding that it was Jupiter on the obverse, but when I check on-line I find many more similar coins with Saturn listed, rather than Jupiter?

Ummmm, can anybody tell me if this is Jupiter, or Saturn? (oh, and how can a person tell the diff?)

Thanks

RomanRepublic
Post Reform Æ Semis (Anonymous)
Circa 88 BC (?)
Rome mint
Diameter: 21mm
Weight: 5.96 grams
Obverse: Laureate head of Jupiter (or Saturn??)
right; S (mark of value) behind
Reverse: Prow of galley right; S (mark of value) above; to right, dolphin downward, ROMA in exergue
Reference: Crawford –; Sydenham –; BMCRR II, p. 589, 10
Other: 2h, Near VF, dark green patina. Rare