Ancients - Roman Republican Upgrade

Before I was lassoed and pulled back on the wagon by the spousal unit, I purchased this RR upgrade. However, my original is a fouree and my most current is a Denarius, so I think they are both keepers. The first coin is my original (the fouree):

CN.PLANCIVS Fouree Denarius
OBV: CN.[PLANCIVS] AED.CVR.S.C. around Diana Planciana right, wearing petasus, earring, and necklace
REV: Cretan goat standing right; bow and quiver behind
Struck at Rome, 55BC
2.67g, 18mm
Cr 432/1


My newest coin is a AR Denarius
3.6g, 18mm


It's interesting to note the weight difference.

 

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I bought one a few years ago and had to sell it unfortunately....



4.05g. 18.80mm

even heavier!

 

Very cool type. Dont see it often.

Shame about selling yours martin.

 

It was a real shame. I built a small Republican collection and parted with most of them due to a period of unemployment. I have avoided building another equivalent collection since... I am not sure why though as they are a fantastic series to collect.

 

Seems to happen to us all at one point

I would like to focus on RR also but the cost of them tends to turn me off. I add one when the price is right.

They are much prettier then imperials.

 

cool, yes ...both keepers, neat comaprison!

 

Oooowww => sweet new RR, Bing!!

... I love these coins (sadly, I haven't sniped one yet)

Oh, and nice coin Martin (she's a beauty)

 

Thanks for the kind remarks everyone

 

I read once in a Celator article that the horns of the Cretan goat were the "horns of plenty" or cornucopia, filled with fruits and grains.

Also, the newer coin is the one to admire. The previous fouree would be difficult to authenticate to an official Mint. Crawford has an essay called "Plated Coin, False Coin" in which he asserts that no Roman Mint ever officially issued fourees. (M. H. Crawford, “Plated Coins, False Coins,” Numismatic Chronicle, 1968. )

I used that viewpoint in my own article about "Copper Owls" the so-called "Emergency Coinage" of Athens 405 BCE.

Be that as it may I was intrigued by the great difference in weight between the two (apparently) genuine examples. Is there any way to date them to see if the second from Maridvnvm is perhaps a generation or more older? We know that the Romans began with coinages on Greek standards before settling into their own, mostly as an exigency of war. Just curious...

 

While I have great admiration for Curtis Clay's opinions and I have no way to prove otherwise, I have a differing opinion about officially issued fourees. My opinion is solely based on my distrust of governments in general. We see throughout history how governments devalue currency as spending levels increase (for whatever reason). I can't help but think that the Romans were not beyond issuing worthless, or near worthless, coinage as the needs for money increased. Just my opinion. We all have one just like certain body parts.

I too am interested in the large difference in weight between my AR Denarius and maridvnvm's coin. My initial assumption was the general wear on my coin as compared to his, but it is a substantial difference (near .5g). This particular coin was issued in 55BC, so the Romans had already settled into their own standards. Anyone have an opinion?

BTW, welcome kaparthy. I think you will find an enjoyable and active group of collectors here on CT. We all like to show off our coins and we all like to share our opinions.

 

Great upgrade, I like the fouree too.

 

I agree. The overwhelming proclivity of any government, regardless of creed, is to OVERSPEND. One cannot overspend without going into debt, and that debt has frequently resulted in debased coinage. We know of the long history of the official debasement of Roman silver coinage, so it doesn't stretch the imagination much to suggest that some fouree issues might also have been official, or at least given a nod and wink.

Proving it is another matter, however.

 

Bing => as you'd probably expect, I keep coming back to this thread to sneak a quick peek at your new Cretan goat!! (it's a beaut)

 

Interesting type Bing
As you wrote : " This particular coin was issued in 55BC, so the Romans had already settled into their own standards"
For me a republican of this period under 3,80/3,85 gr has to show evidence of not being a fourree

Q

 

Since this coin is under your weight standard, are you saying you believe it to be a fouree? It is solid as I can tell. Not plated. In my opinion, the small weight difference of .2g suggests wear not plating.

 

Sorry if I brought trouble into your mind Bing. I apologize
Sure, a difference of .2 gr can be explained by the wear on this coin
Just I want to say that when a coin of this period is underweight (i.e. < 3,80/3,85 gr) I always ask myself about it being a fourree. Not saying this particular coin IS a fourree

Q

 

Yeah, I know how you like dem goats lil buddy.

No troubled mind. Just an interesting discussion.

 

I hate to flog a dead goat, but I went Wildwinds and found 12 examples.
Cn. Plancius AR Denarius. 3.98 g.
(Seller erechtheion no metrics)
(Example 3 no seller; no metrics)
Cn. Plancius silver Denarius. 55 BC. 18.42mm, 3.59g.
Cn. Plancius. 55 BC. AR Denarius (3.95 gm).
Cn. Plancius. 55 BC. AR Denarius (3.98 gm).
Cn. Plancius. 55 BC. AR Denarius (3.27 gm).
Cn. Plancius, AR denarius, (3.92g)
Cn. Plancius 55 B.C. AR Denarius. 4.073 grams.
Cn. Plancius. 55 BC. AR Denarius (3.76 gm).
Cn. Plancius. 55 BC. AR Denarius (17 mm, 4.13 gm).
Cn. Plancius, AR denarius, (3.90g)

A Roman scruple is about 1.3 metric grams. They had finer measurements. Remember that Archimedes called one of his books "The Sand Reckoner." They used grains of sand as measures. The Romans also had an arbitrary "granum" of wheat. Romans are beyond my area but I read that in ancient Greek cities, when they struck coins, the law was worded to say that the master was give a weight of silver from which he was to strike so many coins. That defined the weight of each coin. You would have to make molds for the planchets. The volume of a cylinder is easy enough and even if the abstract math was hard, simple trial-and-error would have solved the problem centuries earlier. After that, you have the vagaries of hand production.

Still and all, here we have a range of 4.13 to 3.27... I think that the best standard of judgement is the actual coin itself. Does it look real?

 

It has been shown to be just plain wrong that Roman Republican coins were struck to a tight per coin standard. Instead they produced a specific number of coins from a given amount of silver (termed 'al marco'). We have coins that show gouges where the flan was reduced in weight before the coin was struck but these coins are not necessarily either high or low in weight as individuals. There are even rare coins that show two separate gouges. The theory is that the mint produced a number of flans from slightly more than the appropriate weight of silver and then randomly gouged coins from the lot until the whole was exactly the correct weight.

I regret I do not own a twice gouged coin but there is one shown on Andrew McCabe's discussions on the matter on Forvm. Here are a few adjusted coins. Since such coins seem to be found mostly in a restricted date range, it is quite possible that the practice was in place for only part of the Republican period. I do not know how the weights were handled before and after this period or whether the al marco system was done but in another manner that would not show on the coins so much (edge trimming?). This certainly would be a good area for research for someone with access to a large number of coins of the same issue all in good shape (a large hoard?).

 

It looks and feels right as compared to other RR coins in my collection from the same time period. I have no doubts about the coin in my mind; however, the weight differences has made for a very interesting discussion. It would appear that my coin falls near the middle of the range of weights from WW.

This is my understanding with many of the coins being struck by experts who could look at a given amount of silver and know it was the right amout kinda like the butcher who can slice an exact amount just by eye.