$15,120 - 2003 lincoln cent?!? $39,100 - 1963 lincoln cent?

I was reading in one of the coin magazines that a 2003 Linciln cent (PCGS ms-70) went for $15,120 and a 1963 (PR70) went for $39,100 at auction? What?! With all the other things said about slabbing, I get images of tulip trading in the 1630's. I wonder how long this will go on until it all collapses. With all the horror stories about slab companies, I am getting the idea to stay as far away from slabs as much as possible unless absolutly necessary. I could understand if they were super - super rare coins, but I can't imagine such prices for so modern - common type of coins

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

your right are the values really supposed to be so high it is probably because the population is like 1 in that grade that is graded so far.

 

I bet there are tons out there, just not submitted yet. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to submit 100 of them and see if any came back pr70?

 

If you search eBay auctions it seems like about 1 out of 500 ( including SGS ) is a 70. Not very good odds.

 

I'm surprised anyone would pay that kind of money for a cent at those levels as well.

 

I copied this from another forum. This sure changes my numbers!

I DID A LITTLE CALCULATION THE OTHER NITE ON WHAT% OF REVERSE PROOFS WERE BEING GRADED 70 AT NGC AND PCGS, (BEFORE ANYONE THAT I'M SURE IS A LOT SMARTER THEN ME JUMPS ON MY STATS) PLEASE REMEMBER THIS IS A CASUAL REFERENCE ONLY, OF THE COINS GRADED AS OF 2 DAYS AGO NGC IS AT 11.5% AND PCGS IS 8.5%,WITH THAT IF YOU SENT 34 REV.PROOFS TO NGC,ON THE AVERAGE YOU SHOULD EXCEPT TO GET 4 RP 70'S, AT PCGS OUT OF 34 YOU SHOULD AVERAGE 3 RP 70'S!

 

seeker:
Read any of Dave Bower's columns in Coin World. He a a strong opponent of this silliness.
When these people go to sell this stuff they will be sorry.
For the same money, or a little more, the buyer could have gotten a high grade (unc) 1901 S Barber quarter! Now, that is a scarce coin.
The creation of the registry sets by PCGS have created this monster.
Enough, at least we (I hope) are smart enough to stay away from this stuff.
I only get these pieces if I can steal them (read: get them for a ridiculously cheap price) and then resell them asap.

 

Isn't this the coin that "turned" in the slab and PCGS bought it back because it wasn't really a 70....??

Speedy

 

People have been collecting moderns since BEFORE the grading companies were
established. The grading companies didn't even allow modern sets in the registries
the first few years. Bowers has been bashing moderns for many years now. In
fact when he started bashing moderns as overpriced junk made in huge quantities
prices were a small fraction of what they are now.

Anyone who has looked logically AND dispassionately at these markets would agree
that some of the best opportunities are in the moderns. More importantly, since coins
are a hobby more than a market, people find that these coins are a lot of fun to col-
lect.

My guess is that the bashing will continue indefinitely. And it is one of the largest
driving forces of these markets. Anyone who thinks that all of the moderns are com-
mon should just check out a price guide. If they are so common then why aren't peo-
ple selling into this madness? If MS-70 Lincolns are so common then why have tens
of thousands of modern collectors found only a single one?

And then come back and explain to me why an MS-70 '03 cent is madness but it's OK
to pay moon money for an MS-69 1919 cent.

 

cladking:
"And then come back and explain to me why an MS-70 '03 cent is madness but it's OK
to pay moon money for an MS-69 1919 cent."
Both are nuts. Condition rarities are still silly. Buy a scarce coin, not a condition rarity.
Is a 1909 VDB in 65 Red worth 1/10th a 67 in red? Nope, (prices are just guesses, could also have been 1/100th).
Buy scarce dates, punt the others.

 

...And it commands a premium based on supply and demand. Another thing
often overlooked is that this premium is often higher for the old coins than it
is for the newer ones. People point at five fold premiums between grades in
moderns and overlook ten fold premiums in indians or twenty fold premiums
in Morgans. It's true that premiums in moderns can sometimes get extreme
but this is the natural result when a coin is extremely rare in one grade and
quite common in the next lower grade.

But moderns differ just like the classics. Each date and mint has its own per-
sonality and if you concentrate on high grades you'll find some are really tough
even in the not so high grades. Some moderns are extremely rare above MS-
65 and don't exist at all in superb gem. If you're looking for '76 Ikes then you
had better lower your sights from an MS-70 because you can spend a long time
finding an MS-64!!!

The real problem when people like Q David Bowers talk about moderns is that
they have many preconcieved notions. This guy is familiar with older US coins
and can speak authoritatively on a wide array of subjects. But there simply is
no statement that applies to all modern US coins except that they were struck
between 1964 and 1998. Not only does each date and mintmark has its own
personality and characteristics but each series of moderns is different. Some
were mass marketed, some weren't. Some ar platinum, others aren't. Some
are mint state, some are proof and some can no longer be found at all in unc-
irculated condition. Some have been collected since 1965, most weren't.

But most importantly is that some are simply not available in high grade. This
can be caused by rarity or it can be caused by the fact that they were poorly
made. Platinum might be superbly made but have you ever opened up a bag
of 1974 Ikes and not seen a coin that even looked uncirculated? Have you ever
opened a bag of 1966 quarters and seen coins which were all struck by tired,
worn out dies? Those of us collecting these have. And before you figure that
there are lots of bags around to check, you should realize we spent most all of
these coins the year they were issued because there wasn't anything decent.
There aren't bags of most of this stiuff around and even if there were the coins
would be junk. When one of the bashers comes up with a really nice '66 25c,
then I'll believe them. It doesn't need to be MS-70, just a nice MS-64 with a
nice crisp strike would impress me to no end. But the fact is that in many cases
they'd even have trouble coming up with an ugly MS-60 or a nice circulated coin.

In the mean time many of us are having a hoot putting collections of scarce coins
together on a shoestring.

 

OK. To each his own and there's no wrong way to enjoy the hobby.

This attitude is one that's tough for modern collectors to have simply because
most of the coins are common in lower grades. Essentially believing this means
moderns wouldn't be much fun. But very few colectors collect this way. Indian
cent collectors don't put an 1877 in the hole and say "that's it, I'm done". No,
they seek the other dates as well even those dates which are more common than
moderns. When they upgrade they don't buy a choice '77 cent and stop there,
they also upgrade their 1907 cent and the '93.

Still, to each his own.

But most of the bashers just bash moderns out of hand. They lump all the coins
tegether as just worthless junk and wonder why people would pay much money
for it.

The fact is that there are numerous rare moderns that had mintages in the single
digits and there are scarcities throughout most of the series and these get bashed
right along with everything else.

Moderns have a lot of advantages over the classics and are an ideal place for new-
bies to get started. This isn't to say that they need to "graduate" to real coins or
that there's anything to preclude them from becoming expert in moderns, just that
these coins are much more "user friendly" than old coins. One doesn't have so
much concern with grading problems or a shift in grading standards. If the third
party graders started grading all coins with rubs as AU-58 it would be devastating
to many classic coiun collectors but modern collectors would be unaffected. There
are almost no moderns with rubs; they are either obviously unc/ proof or they aren't
There is not the same problem with alterrations in the moderns, they aren't played
with by coin doctors. Grading is easier as well since there aren't dozens of different
kinds of surfaces caused by many decades of storage and various cleaning and dip-
ping. These coins are available. They can be hard to find locally sometimes but you
can find most of them on the net. They can be found in circulation and for the first
time in generations there are rare coins being found in change. Most of these sets
can be as challenging as you like. You can always include scarcer varieties and higher
grades if you find something too easy.

So sure, collect what you like. Bowers can even slam what he likes but he has been
making some very untrue and misleading statements about moderns. He has even
said things like you can fill up a truck with all the MS-69 and MS-70 states quarters
out there. States quarters don't come all that much nicer than the other circulating
coinage.

 

clad king:
I agree with your comments, especially about the 1966 quarter, yes well worth a premium in nice MS-65 if you can find one, esp. fully struck.
However, I was talking about paying ridiculous premiums for coins like MS-70 Lincoln cents from the past twenty years, paying $9 for an MS 69 and then $10,000 for an MS70 is silly.
That extra money could have bought a very nice high grade 1955 double die! Or 1972 Double die, or tons of other scarce coins.

 

I wouldn't pay that kind of money for an '03 cent but that's because I'm not extremely
familiar wuith this date. I don't even start looking at a date until it's 3 years old. In this
case though, it is a little different. This is the ONLY Lincoln cent graded MS-70. There
may or may not ever be another. Frankly my guess is that there will be a few more but
they won't necessarily be 2003-P's.

Hobby leaders have been saying for generations to seek quality. All collectors tend to
gravitate to the finest examples. There is agrowing base for collecting the memorial
cents. If these coins ever become as popular as the wheat cents this price might look
like a bargain.

 

clad:
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not opposed to saving any series, I do have a nice above average set of Washington Quarters, including clads, and many of them were very hard to locate in nice condition (all uncs, except for the big four, 32 D & S, 36 D 34 D).
I agree that clads are very difficult to find in above ave to choice.
But, the problem is with novices seeing these 'super' coins and paying ridiculous prices for coins that they will someday try to sell and get back nothing on thier investment. Then they'll hate all of us!
As I have always heard: Read, learn, study and then read some more.
Then go out and buy a coin.

 

I'd agree that some of the coins will prove to be lousy investments. And I strongly
agree that the best bet is to learn as much as possible about the coins you are col-
lecting and even the ones you aren't.

I don't believe it's a simple matter to put any coin in the category of one that people
should avoid. There are the obvious ones that should be avoided like anything that
you can't understand the reason for a premium or any coin that you personally can't
spot the difference. For instance, iy you can't tell the difference between an MS-69
and an MS-70 then it is not wise to pay a huge premium for the higher grade.

But who am I to tell collectors they should buy their circulated '26-S buffalo in F because
there is a huge premium for a VF? Most collectors are already going to buy the Fine
simply because of this premium so the demand is already factored in. Granted most
'26-S buyers can tell the difference where one is left to wonder if the proof eagle buyer
can tell between 69 and 70. This, too, is factored in but the long term stability of the
market might be poor if there really are a lot of people who are just taking the word of
a third party grader.

These considerations do not apply to all moderns. Just as most collectors can easily see
the difference between a F and a VF buffalo most collectors can easily see the diffference
between an MS-64 and an MS-65 Ike. While prices will continue to be the result of sup-
ply and demand, there shouldn't be a problem with stability unless demand changes sud-
denly. This is highly improbably, especially in light of the relatively small size of this par-
ticular segment of the modern market.

I don't see any problem with people buying good coins at market price if they know what
they're doing and have some familiarity with the market. Certainly newbies rushing in to
buy unproven coins that they don't understand at enormous premiums that are largely
driven by other newbies and dependent on third party grading might prove problematical
in the long run. Instead many people just say something more along the lines of "moderns
are junk" or "moderns are a ripoff". If they simply identified the specific coin or series they
find "objectionable" then they'd have a far better chance of making statements that are
hard to take issue with. Again, even here, there is a lot of various opinion and many peo-
ple just have a knee-jerk reaction to attack or defend most moderns.

I sincerely believe that many people are missing some of the greatest opportunities in many
generations in almost all modern world coins. There's a great deal to attract people no mat-
ter what people find desirable in a collectible. These coins for the main part were not saved
and numerous high mintage coins are quite rare and extremely cheap. These coins aren't for
everyone but many people are having fun in all sorts of mint products, ultra-moderns and mod-
ern coins. There are also a lot of price which have been explosive across these areas for six
years now. I doubt this will stop anytime soon.