I bought a 1798 large cent and I have no idea what variety it is (help, please!)

Brian, There was an a Master Hub used for several of the later reverse dies in 1798. However, as is evident, many of the devices varied, like berries and stems, fraction bars, fractions. The only relative uniformity is in the relationship of the leaves and lettering on these later reverses.

 

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Thanks for the help fellas. Quick question...what resource do you use to attribute large cents like this, and how can I get it?

 

The best free resource is the Holmes Late date catalog:

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/toc_auc.php?site=1&lang=1&sale=54

In terms of books I use both the Breen early date encyclopedia and Sheldon's original Penny Whimsy.

A subscription to the Early American Copper club is also an wonderful resource for all things early copper, it was the best collecting money I have spent by far:

www.eacs.org

 

The later 1798 and all of the 1800 large cent used reverse dies that were created from a complete master hub. But at the time they did not have the capability to create a complete die from a hub. The dies were never fully brought up and the shallowest features (berry and leaf stems and the wreath stems) often had to be touched up or completely cut by hand and in a few cases lettering repunched. The Mint REALLY wanted to be able to make fully hubbed dies. They experimented with it as early as 1793, and kept coming back to it. The Large cent reverses of 1798 and 1800 were their largest scale experiment, but they were never really successful until after the introduction of the steam press in 1836. (Although the hubbing probably had nothing to do with the steam press. But I believe they acquired a much larger medal press around that time which had the power needed to fully hub the dies.)

 

the letters in the word CENT are positioned slightly different on s-175 than they are on s-187. the E in liberty on the obverse is also positioned different on s-175 than it is on s-187.

 

Yes?

 

Nonsense, it's a low grade, common cent I can pick up 4 'morrow for $50 and why would I want to.

 

I never posted pictures of the colonial...only of the Large Cent. I estimate the value of the Colonial at $20-25. If you say you could pick up the large cent in that grade for $50, then I guess I did well paying $64 for what I think is a $75 value. What makes you think I paid too much?

 

I 'm going on the pic's you posted????

 

Ok, Ok, so what is the colonial?

 

And apparently not, I have not Seen The colonial

 

1788 Nova Caesarea, probably AG, corroded. I've seen ones in pretty much the same condition going from $20+ on both completed and current auctions.

 

Pic's?

 

These are quick pics I snapped just today.

 

Yeah I could not attribute the coin from those photos either - but marshall,conder,beefy and others do not need much to go on. Takes a lot of knowledge and time to catch things like a hanging berry. But they do a great job.

 

In the middle of 1798, a master Hub began being used on the reverse so the answer is yes and no. Many are from the same hub, but not all. And the mint still pulled old dies out for further use then. When the same hub IS used, the final dies are distinguished by berries, stems and finishing touches done directly on the dies.

My only question with the falling berry is that, while diagnostic for 1798 as S-187, I think I've seen it on a later dated variety(ies). Perhaps 1800 or 1801. So a visible date is needed for positive ID.

 

I can see in hand that it is definitely a 1798. The coin is heavily worn but I can see the top of the 7 as the most defining feature, with the other digits being worn but still partially visible.

 

You really don't need a date. The trajectory of the stem is unique. There are also other confirmation points to further support the diagnosis apart from other varieties. The fraction/fraction bar - relationship to the numerals and the lower left inside berry. The reverse die of the S-187 is unique, so if the indictors are there It can be discerned. However, a date and certainly will save a ton of time in arriving in the right ballpark. Of couse, the simplest way to identify the S-187 is to have an example with the obverse die cracks and CUDs. Then one need to go no further.