Are all woodies errors?

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by AlexMoore, Aug 16, 2013.

  1. AlexMoore

    AlexMoore Active Member

    Good evening, I am just curious as the title questions if "woody" cents or pennies are considered errors by collectors? I know they are due to them being explained on this awesome site. ( http://error-ref.com/part-v--planchet-errors.html ). But I question whether all woodies are errors due to many being minor or so common and due to my experience of never seeing one in a slab labeled as an error? Has anyone seen any slabbed as errors? If you have please paste a link below. Excuse me if this question is obvious to you but to me its something that crossed my mind that I am simply not well informed about..
     
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  3. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    I have several slabbed and none are slabbed as errors.
     
  4. jallengomez

    jallengomez Cessna 152 Jockey

  5. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    no, not errors.

    Simply put, since I discussed this yesterday with JP Martin, mis-mixed metal mixture.
     
  6. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

  7. jallengomez

    jallengomez Cessna 152 Jockey

    This is probably one of those tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to things. PCGS(and most) define an error as "a numismatic item that unintentionally varies from the norm." Given that definition, I would say that yes, they are errors. However, some might argue that the mint found them to be acceptable, and are thus not errors.
     
  8. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    They have been far from consistent. In fact that is the only on I have seen. For instance, I believe this one has more "improper alloy mix" than teh one they labeled as such.

    1925-pcgs64bn-lincoln-1000.jpg
     
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  9. jallengomez

    jallengomez Cessna 152 Jockey

    Now that's a nice Lincoln.
     
  10. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    I just wish it were mine.
     
  11. jay4202472000

    jay4202472000 Well-Known Member

    That '25 is a beauty!
     
  12. Christian Gonzales

    Christian Gonzales I am a 14 year old coin collector.

    Where did you find this?
     
  13. AlexMoore

    AlexMoore Active Member

    I think so far this seems to be the most "accurate" observation so far. The two pics shown above definitely show the tomayto-tomahto thing in my opinion. I wonder though since the penny graded by ngc in my opinion " a slabbing company more attuned to classifying errors or varieties" is more likely to "accurately grade such woodie coins as errors vs pcgs which in my opinion "is a grading company that is not so attuned to classifying errors and varieties". What are your thoughts on this people?
     
  14. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    So here is an NGC slabbed.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. AlexMoore

    AlexMoore Active Member

    Hrm... Never mind then? :oops:
     
  16. jallengomez

    jallengomez Cessna 152 Jockey

    My thoughts on this are that David Lawrence probably gets NGC to write anything he wants on the label. :cool:
     
  17. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

    It has always bothered me that many 'woodies' or 'improper alloy mix' seems to be a surface phenomena. Generally ( outside of numismatics) improper mixing of alloys that is visible on the surface also extend a decent proportion internally. So if the surface colors ( due to different chemical reaction on the different metal components). I would expect to see this color variation at different levels on the struck coin, such as under the base of Lincoln's bust ( rlm's post #7) than the coin mentioned in the original post, where the difference is so extreme on the surface of the bust, but hardly visible between the bottom of the bust and the rim. Possibly I am wrong, but it doesn't look correct to me. IMO.

    Oh, I don't consider it an error, just a visually interesting toning.
     
  18. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    You are confusing the daylight out of me. First off, all the coin you see was the same "level" on the original planchet - the top surface. The minting process does not machine into the planchet and I am sure you understand all of this. So just what are you referring to with your "levels"?

    On the other hand, I have always been convinced that the differences in color appear due to toning (i.e. oxidation). Doug seems to feel that the color difference is present from the get go. Maybe you have managed to show that he is wrong. Probably the last area on a Lincoln to turn brown is that area between the rim and the bust. In other words, it is the last area to tone. Therefore, it would be the last area to show the grain.
     
  19. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

    I visualize the flow from the strike to be from the center outward ( thinking that the dies are slightly conical to start with ) , so as the flow occurs , the surface should be almost homogeneous in alloy mix ( normal alloy mix or improper) over the surface of the coin as it is struck, so I do not see why that area should tone differentially compared to the rest ( proper or improper mix). I will have to get out a group of cents that are RB and see if that is a consistent fact ( the last area to turn brown) as I am not sure either way, although I have looked at thousands, it didn't stick in my mind one way or another. Sorry to cause confusion.

    I would understand why there could be variations in the subsurface metal crystallization such as the Cu-Ni mix of 5 cent coins ( thus the phenomena of Nic-a-Date), but it doesn't work on copper alloys.
     
  20. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    I am dumbfounded as to why you think the surface moves appreciably. Look at a coin with an impurity in it (as some extreme woodies). The lamination or void remains virtually in tact and in a nearly perfect line as it it originated. If the surface flows and mixes, it it minute.

    As for Nic-a-Date not working on copper alloys, just what is the nickel? It is 75% copper. Why is that not a copper alloy?
     
  21. jallengomez

    jallengomez Cessna 152 Jockey

    I agree with RLM. Any metal flow on the planchet would be indiscernible.
     
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