I like Cleaned Coins and you should to thread

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by mrbrklyn, Apr 29, 2012.

  1. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum


    IS there a better product?
     
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  3. goldmark

    goldmark Active Member

    Small question, what's with an alcohol based solution with 96-97 %vol. ethanol? As far as I can tell it leaves practically (in the sense of not visible, what exists on microscopic level is a separate issue) no residue and the coins that were treated show no signs of problems.
     
  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Better than what ? You never scrub, rub, wipe, brush, or anything else - coins. You soak them or rinse them, that's it.

    As for what to use, that depends on what you are trying to get off the coins. But there are 4 things to use.

    1 - distilled water
    2 - acetone
    3 - xylene
    4 - a commercial coin dip

    Oh, make that 5 things. You can get Verdi-Care to take light verdigris off coins.
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Why risk it and use alcohol when there are better things, with no risk if used properly ?

    And perhaps you are right, perhaps there is nothing on the coins where you have used alcohol. But I have had people tell me that used everything from fingernail polish remover to taco sauce to clean a coin and that those left nothing on the coin.

    You see, the issue is I don't know you. And I have no idea of your experience level so I don't know what you can see or if you would know what it was when you saw it. I only know what I can see, and what I have seen on coins cleaned by just about everything under the sun. And I know that things I listed above are the only things that should ever be used.

    Those things are pure, they are not 96% or 97% pure, they are 100% pure. So there is no risk, if used properly. And they will remove things that alcohol will not. That's why I always recommend that people do not use alcohol.

    You want to use it, go right ahead. But you tell me, what's the smarter choice ?
     
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  6. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    which brand of commercial coin dip do you recommend
     
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    They all work, but they all work differently. So it takes a lot of testing with whatever one you choose before you can figure out how to use them correctly.

    And no matter what one you choose, or how good you get at using it, dipping a coin is always a crap shoot - you will never, ever, know what you are going to end up with. Because of that, it is all too easy to take a $10,000 coin and turn it into a $1,000 coin in 1 second flat.
     
  8. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I feel so poor, I have perhaps two coins that are worth $1,000
     
    Pi man likes this.
  9. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    why not tell us about the brands you know and what they work best with?
     
  10. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    send those 2 to me and your problem will be solved :D
     
  11. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    "Better than what ? You never scrub, rub, wipe, brush, or anything else - coins. You soak them or rinse them, that's it."

    Well said. This is a rule that should not be broken. If you do, the coin will look cleaned.
     
  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    The numbers are meaningless really and only meant to illustrate the point, it works the same with a coin worth $100 being turned into a $10 coin. Or a coin worth $100,000 being turned into one worth $10,000.

    By the same token, when done properly it can also work in reverse. A coin that previously sold for $20,000 was properly dipped and then sold for $126,000.
     
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Because it's not that simple. As I said, all brands work but they all work differently, some are stronger than others. And it also depends on each individual coin and its condition. Some coins you might want to use the dip full strength, with other coins you would want to dilute the dip. But how much ? That can vary from 10% to 75%, and be different with each brand. In other words there are literally thousands of possibilities as to what exactly you need to do.

    Like I said, it takes a great deal of experience and knowledge to be able to dip coins properly. You don't learn it in 5 minutes, it can take years.
     
  14. goldmark

    goldmark Active Member

    The smarter choice is always to acquire knowledge first before making an informed decision. The problem with cleaning coins is that is it highly experience based and should always be discussed under the premise of correct/proper use with sufficiently existing technical skills present. But even proper use doesn't eliminate the risk present, it just adds less non deterministic factors to a varying degree. You're right in calling cleaning coins a gamble, but doesn't this also mean that no list ever compiled can be called free of risk. For all cleaning methods including mechanic cleaning there are circumstances under which I can see the use adequate, if properly balanced.

    Based on my own experience and considering a larger consensus of other collectors I have talked to, the use of Ethanol has so far not led to the observation of unwanted consequences. The problem here is that positive experience doesn't invalidate real existing problems just because they may not be observed (yet?). What I would have liked to hear is someone with the right professional background (chemistry) to speak up and discuss here in a greater detail what could be missed.

    Some of the chemical cleaning agents on your list are highly questionable. Questionable based on my own experience and larger consensus. All commercial coin dips fall under two categories they're either abrasive by use of mineral acids or contain a mix of surfactants, both are terrible and neither are 100% pure. (For precisions sake my experience involves mainly the use of the Lighthouse/Leuchtturm coin dips.) Diemethylbenzene are harmful, water polluting and have a negative environmental footprint. This is a risk that absolutely needs to be considered in use, especially accidental problems should be taken into consideration (unintended consequences), in not only doing material but also personal damage.

    If brightening up of a silver coin is wished then baking soda isn't that bad. - of course if properly used only :)

    Distilled water and Ethanol are very easy in use, mild proven cleaning solutions and perhaps indeed problem free. Let me ask you in return what's the smarter choice?
     
  15. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Then I would feel even poorer!
     
  16. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Perhaps I am wrong, but "mechanical" cleaning involves touching the coin with something other than liquids or gases, and would HAVE to leave traces such as scratches.

    There are a few chemists on here, including myself, but you have to consider that you are talking about a very complex and extensive field in cleaning metals. It can not only involve inorganic chemistry but also organic chemistry, chemical kinetics, surface chemistry and metalurgy, just to name a few. Certain things are moderately certain - As Doug has said, little harm can come from distilled water, acetone, xylene (the dimethylbenzene you refer to), commercial coin dips and VerdiCare. Even in this group, I'm sure Doug would tell you not to use acetone on copper because it can cause odd toning (gotta try this one myself to see).

    Dimethylbenzene is xylene. Don't put it down the drain and use with adequate ventilation, kind of like gasoline. I don't think I would include mineral acids as abrasives, but I certainly would include baking soda (sodium hydrogencarbonate).

    Not that bad - but not that good.

    Refer back to Doug's post about the 5 to use. Are there others - absolutely. I would include the alcohols, methanol, ethanol, isopropanol, and there are many, many organic solvents that would probably work. Maybe I'll write a book on that. : - )
     
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  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    For whatever it is worth goldmark, this subject has been discussed ad infinitum on this forum - by chemists. And the unanimous opinion is that acetone and or xylene (when called for) are preferable over alcohol.

    The purity and risk I mentioned had to do with acetone & xylene. Those 2 are pure, alcohol is not. Alcohol carries limited risk because it is not pure, they do not.
     
  18. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Small disagreement, I think alcohols could have their place. I think alcohols could be used on copper with less problems than acetone and have some good effect. Methanol is available in 100% purity, ethanol is usually available as 95% with the other 5% being water or is avaliable as 100% (absolute) with traces of benzene, and isopropanol (rubbing alcohol) is commonly available at 50%, 70% and 91% and possibly could be obtained at 100%. The remainder of the volume for the alcohols is usually water unless you buy some scented kind of stuff.
     
    goldmark likes this.
  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    If you can get pure stuff, by all means. I've just never seen it in any store.
     
  20. Asylum

    Asylum Member

    GDJMSP, what are your thoughts about soaks in pure mineral oil?
     
  21. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    So I could just use Vodka;)
     
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