Matt's discussion yesterday on the wholesale side of the coin business encouraged me to start this thread. I didn't want to post this to his thread because it may have led his discussion in another direction. Last week, I attended the Summer FUN Show in Orlando on Thursday. I took 18 certified CC-Morgans with me to sell because I needed the cash. I hated to do it, but it was necessary. I could have taken any of the other 135 non-CC certified Morgans that I have in my collection, but I didn't feel that they would be easier to sell close to the prices I wanted. With the exception of an 1891-CC in an old ANACS EF45, all of the others were MS in either NGC or PCGS slabs, and most of these were common-date 82-84. I didn't have a current Greysheet to price them, so I used the Numismedia prices listed on NGC, and I figured that if I was offered somewhere near 70%, I would be doing okay. My first stop was at the NGC table to take care of a submission. While there, I noticed that the dealer across the aisle had a large "WE PAY CASH FOR COINS" sign, and he had a full case of Morgans. After concluding my business with NGC, I asked if he would be interested in the CC's, and he immediately started going through them with his Greysheet. I pointed out that the values for three of them, an 1882-CC NGC MS63 VAM-2C, an 1883-CC NGC MS65 toner (my avatar) and an 1885-CC PCGS MS65 VAM-4 would be considerably higher than the prices listed in the Greysheet. I told the dealer that I wanted to get about $8,700 for all 18, and he countered that the prices for these three would be a "deal-breaker" for him. So, I asked him to refigure his offer excluding those three since these were my favorite CC's, anyway. I think what surprised me the most is that he didn't even bother to examine any of them with a loupe. Instead, he simply relied on the grades on the slabs. I would guess that if I had only a few, he might have tried to knock the prices down a bit after examining them. Anyway, his offer for the 15 was $5,150 which was 72% of what I hoped to get for them. Sure, I could have shopped them around a little more, but if I had to spend 30-45 minutes at each table, it would have taken the entire day. Besides, A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush! Sold! My purpose for starting this thread is to let some of you know that selling common material like the proof and mint sets mentioned by Matt is a totally different ballgame when compared to a series like CC Morgans or any other similar denomination that will always be in demand. So, if any of you would like to share a similar story on another series or just comment on my story, your input is welcome. Chris
Something that many don't realize is that if you had gone from table to table looking for offers, is that by the time you got to the third table the offers would either not be forthcoming or they would be very lowball. Dealers at shows know this game, they see it every single day. A collector or vest-pocket dealer will walk the bourse offering items for sale and everybody will see him. And they will know that he is looking for offers, shopping the floor. Of course they also know that all those other dealers out there on the floor are the very same guys that they themselves are looking to buy from. I'd estimate that 80% or more of all sales at a coin show take place between 2 dealers who have tables at the show. So when they see this guy shopping the floor they know what is going on. And they know that if they are to have a chance at maybe getting some fresh material or other common coins that they want, at a price that works for them, it's not likely going to be from the dealer who ends up buying from the guy who has been shopping the floor for hours. One of two things will happen - the shopper will either finally get an offer that he thinks is acceptable, high enough, after visiting a dozen or so tables. But if this happens then that means that there is little to no room left for them to maybe buy those coins from that dealer. Or - the shopper will return to a table he has visited previously. When they see this happen the red flags go up and the bells ring in their heads. They know that the shopper has given in, and has returned to the table where he got the best offer to make his sale. And again they know that there will be little room for them to maybe buy those coins. But worse than that, the dealer at the table who the shopper returns to, he knows right away that he made the highest offer, he knows it when he sees the guy coming before he ever gets to his table. And he also knows what all the rest of the dealers know, that none of the other dealers at the show are going to come pay him a visit to look at those coins and see if they want to buy them. In other words, he knows he's paying to much. So when the shopper gets to his table and says, OK, I'll sell you these coins, that dealer then lowers his offer to the shopper. Otherwise he won't be able to sell those coins at the show and he'll end up having to take them home with him. Which of course is NOT what he wants to do. Now the dealers at the show know all of this, because as I said before they see this same scenario played out every single day at every show they go to. But the shoppers, the collectors looking to sell their coins - they don't know it. They haven't got a clue as to what's going on. In their minds the only thing that has been happening all day is that they have been getting what they consider to be lowball offers all day. They don't realize they brought it on themselves by their own actions - by shopping the floor. So, as a collector who is looking to sell some of his coins, if you want to have any hope at all of getting the best possible price for your coins, the best thing you can do is to not visit more than 2 tables to get offers. Then take the best one. But make sure those 2 tables you visit are the tables of dealers that have a good reputation. In other words, do your homework before you go to the show. Now most of you reading are not going to believe this, you're going to say that's ridiculous ! Well, it isn't, it's quite true. All of those dealers at the show know the coin market far better than most of you do. And they know what's going on when they see it, even if you don't. They play the game every day. And they have their own rules for that game - all of them. They know how to play it. So believe what I am telling you, for your own benefit.
Really? Matt said he paid 30 - 40% back for the government packaged sets. You got about 30% back for the CC dollars. Not that much difference. Of course 82,83 and 84 GSA CC's are still fairly generic items.
Great threads. Chris and Mat !! As a collector I feel it's important to understand how the wholesale /dealer works. As you know, this is aggravating subject to an uninformed collector. Especially to a novice collector,
Woo! Thanks for sharing this with us GDJMSP. I have never seen this happen, but then again I haven't been looking.
Is the numismedia price he used retail or dealer pricing? I think Matt said he offers 30-40% back of dealer pricing and CPM got 30% back of retail pricing. That was how I interpreted it anyway.
I believe that Matt said he paid about 40% back of Greysheet bid so he could sell it at 20% back of bid. I got 28% back of Numismedia which is closer to retail. Chris
The coins Chris sold are far more liquid than those that Matt purchased. The deal that I commented on in Matt's thread ended up with my selling modern product at 80% of Greysheet and the client receiving about 75% of Greysheet so I made a whopping 5% on the travel, organization, time and connections. The person I sold these to will likely hold them until he has enough to sell them up the chain for 85% of Greysheet.
It wasn't necessarily 30% back of wholesale. What Chris used as his price guide was Numismedia, which is most often higher than what Grey Sheet list. But it depends on what you are selling. 30% back of Bid (Grey Sheet) for bulk Mint Sets and Proof Sets, that's actually pretty good. Anybody should be happy with that because that's about all you're ever gonna get, anywhere. Chris said most of his coins were all '82-'84 CC Morgans, 15 of them. And he got $5100 for those. Now figure that an '82-'84 CC in 63-64 is roughly a $200 coin, retail, just about any day of the week. Multiply by 15 and that's $3000. In 65 they are roughly a $400 coin. Throw a few of those in and that makes up the difference. Those are Heritage prices, which is not wholesale ! So I'd say Chris did pretty dang good. But I readily agree with Tom. '82 - '84 CC Morgans in 63 to 65 are about as generic as you can get, but they are in a whole different world if compared to modern Mint & Proofs sets ! There's a hundred times more buyers out there for the Morgans than there are for the sets. So don't misread or misinterpret what you are reading in this thread. Selling at shows is often your best bet as a collector. Chris got retail prices for his coins - and he had no seller fees and no shipping & handling or hassles to worry about ! And while he didn't say specifically, I'd bet he did it all in 10 to 15 minutes. That beats ebay to death ! But as I said, it depends on what you are selling.
It took me about 30 minutes. 9 of the 15 were 82-84: 1882-CC: (1) NGC MS63; (3) NGC MS64 1883-CC: (1) PCGS MS64 DMPL; (1) PCGS MS64 GSA; (1) PCGS MS64 OGH 1884-CC: (1) NGC MS63 PL; (1) PCGS MS63 There were no 65's in the lot I sold. On the down side, about three miles from home on the return trip, my alternator died. Chris
