Grrrrr....Littleton!

Well, let me make a clarification. Littleton's coins-on-approval system is vaguely mentioned when when you answer to an add from a magazine. Isn't it quite understandable for someone to misunderstand the program? plus, the on approval coins are enclosed in an envelope, so some unaware people may not even BOTHER to open it and....see, guys? These are how I FELT ABOUT LITTLETON.
-Rickipedia

 

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I'm curious as to the age of the OP, though it doesn't really matter. I question your motives in starting this thread. A quick search of the site using the keyword "Littleton" should have returned several threads of other opinions regarding that particular company. Keeping in mind that as a serious collector, many simply won't purchase from them. But for the casual collector and gift buyer, they do offer a convenient way to buy coins. Their approval service gives the casual collector the opportunity to view said coins before committing to purchase. As with all types of transactions, the trick is to read the fine print. Failure to do so is not the fault of the company.

Littleton's business model is not based on selling to the serious collector. They are not interested in selling you coins to flip and make a profit with. They are, in fact, doing exactly that; buying coins for as little as possible and selling them for a profit. Understand what a collector is, that is, someone who buys and sells coins for the pleasure of viewing and owning, or the challenge of completing sets. Not saying a collector can't or shouldn't realize profits but in the true spirit of collecting profit is not the motivation. I read too many posts from people who don't understand why they should pay full retail pricing for a coin, since they can't then turn around and flip it for profit on eBay. There is no shame in buying at or near the actual value of a coin. Understand that making money from buying and selling coins involves large volume at low prices and quick turnaround with selling. It also involves some business expense. It is not a "get rich scheme". Littleton is not a warehouse store. They are a retailer. They cater to the casual collector, not the "dealers".

And as far as coin gifts, be grateful that someone took enough of an interest in your hobby to attempt giving you a gift that they thoughtfully believed you would like. Most fathers and mothers can relate to the innumerable gifts (ties, scarves, t-shirts, etc). I cherish every one of those gifts from my kids, even though I wouldn't wear most in public. Why? Because it's the thought behind the gift that really counts. My son has, in the recent past, purchased coins for me. He has no real clue about coins and he is a young adult, but you know what? He made the attempt to give me something I like. And it didn't cost me a thing. So even though they didn't fit my needs, I keep them with the rest of my collection. Just because.

For the record, the only Littleton coins I have purchased have been in coin lots at auctions. I have not purchased anything directly from them, nor do I regularly peruse their web site and catalog.

 

So let me get this straight… Littleton should have graciously understood that you misunderstood the program, that you didn’t bother to open your mail, and because they did not you…..

Gotcha…it makes perfect sense now. All is clearly their fault.


Seriously though, I am not trying to be hard on you, but I am hoping that you will allow yourself to see the big picture. You (and/or your parents) made a choice and while you may regret it, it was yours to make, so there is no reason to publicly vent and bash a company who did nothing wrong. Learn from it and don't do it again.

 

I must have missed this post. "Vaguely" mentioned is still "mentioned". It is the buyer's responsibility (in any transaction, not just this case) to thoroughly and fully understand any "Terms and Conditions" clause before making any type of deal. Again, too many threads about how "I accidentally bid on this item", or "bid on that item and then used the money for something else", and "the "bad" seller won't let me out of the deal" that I read on this and other forums. Especially from the younger members. It is, in the end, your responsibility to read the fine print. This has nothing to do with researching, and "I'm a newbie" is not an excuse in this case. You should research and read the fine print on every transaction you are considering, be it coins, a credit card, or a car.

 

having said bad things about Littleton earlier, let me now say something good about them. Littleton is an old company and their business model made great sense for a long time because before the internet there were a lot of collectors who had no access to coin shows or local dealers. The only thing they could do was to order from dealers they didn't know, paying upfront, hoping they would arrive, and then maybe having to make returns. Littleton would send these people a selection of coins eo examine at their leisure and pruchase if and what they wanted. they could even track what you had purchased and tailor your approval selection to your pocketbook and collector interest. Before the internet they were truly a benefit to those (especially beginners) who could get their fix no other way.

 

You bring up a very good point, and believe it or not, there are still people who buy this way. No internet, no cell phones . And Littleton didn't let progress impede their growth. They adapted to new technology and expanded their market base.

The fact that some choose to ignore the fine print doesn't make Littleton a bad company. The fact that they don't offer the best prices doesn't mean they're gouging.

 

The problem with littleton is that they target uneducated people with high prices. Everyone here and their dog knows that littleton is overpriced.

However it's the elderly with no internet, the children with parents who think they are getting a bargain, or weak-minded who fall for this stuff.

They hook people with the whole "approval" thing, and then they put up a facade about "honesty and integrity" making you believe their nonsense.

If you visit their website, they have the BBB "torch award" for market ethics, get real! You, the consumer, are the one getting torched here.

If you don't like what they send, YOU must pay return shipping.

Now with that said, it burns a lot of would-be collectors. They get disgusted, and then they quit.

If a large company existed that drew collectors via magazines, radio, and tv, with decent prices, it would be a whole different ball game.

Littleton is by no means small, they employ 370 people in a 85,000 square foot facility. They cannot play the "woe is me, I'm a small dealer" card.

I don't know how much they pay on things, but get this...

A 1921 morgan dollar can be purchased for around....I'd say $22 in average condition. They sell them right now for $71.50. (Average circulated)

So they make 3x proffit. They did not lower prices much at all since silver fell.

They charge $53.95 for 2013 silver eagles. Provident sells them for $23.25, so I imagine littleton gets them for around $21 in bulk. That's over 2x proffit.

So when you look at other products, littleton can proffit as high as 4x on some items. No major coin dealers make this kind of money.

No matter how you slice it, the company is greedy, and it lures unsuspecting people into coin collecting.

Until "fair pricing" regulations exist in the coin collecting industry, this stuff will continue. There is another gouger company that goes by the name of "govmint".

What's really sad is...in the age of instant information (the internet) littleton still seems to be "eating well". That means people are still falling for their ruse.

If you would have access to littleton's customer base, I'm sure quite a bit of is is elderly people who don't have family or the internet, continuing to collect using their life savings, thinking every time "they get a good deal".

This stuff makes me sick, you can imagine just how much money the upper management for littleton makes, especially the president.

 

That line made me laugh...I'm just imagining it way different then you mean it.

 

If you "don't know how much they pay on things", why give this whole spiel? How many times have we gone over the same thing; you dish out your so-called "facts" about their profits yet completely ignore their cost of doing business. All the employees you speak of COST MONEY, just as the “85,000 square foot facility” COSTS MONEY. You say that “if a large company existed that drew collectors via magazines, radio, and tv, with decent prices, it would be a whole different ball game” but fail to tell us how they would pay for such advertising while staying within the “Detecto fair price guidelines”.

If you don’t like Littleton, don’t buy from them, but please drop the crusade until or unless you are willing to look at and accept the big picture.

 

There are dozens of large dealers that charge much less for coins. Provident sells silver dollars. As a matter of fact they sell average circ 1921 morgans for $27.53. That's $43.97 LESS than what Littleton wants. Provident advertises on the internet too.

They don't seem to be hurting do they? In fact, take a look at other coin dealers as well. They aren't crying for money are they?

Take a look at all the coin dealers, and you will see they make a tidy profit, yet you somehow want to justify littleton's asking prices because they need to pay their bills.

Your logic seems to suggest that the reason littleton charges so much is because they have to pay for advertising. Even if you take that into consideration, they are still making far too much money.

Take a look at walmart, they made $17b net profit last year. They advertise on the radio, tv, internet, print ads, and more. Yet they are one of the LOWEST priced stores in America.

Provident's buy price on 1921 average circ morgan dollars are $23.05, they sell them for $27.55.

They make $4.50 on each one sold.

So if Littleton is buying them for $25 (which is more), and is selling them for $71.50, they make $46.50 on each one, which is 10x more than provident.

Does provident seem to be hurting for money? Are they going out of business? No...in fact they are doing quite well.

So you keep on thinking 10x profit is justifiable, I will keep on thinking about one word, GREED!

 

The horse is long dead. You have nothing better to do than complain like this?
If you don't like the way someone does business, don't do business with them.

 

I'm never going to do any business with them, in fact I no longer live in the US. I posted this thread to tell you guys how I felt about littleton. Honestly, Littleton is a scam to me. It has done no help to me. To clarify, the things that I mentioned on the first post is entirely to my opinions, how I look at them. It may have been different for you, but that's how it looked as to me.

 

No, what makes me ill is the uninformed consumer who comes on an internet forum and bashes a well-established and profitable company, simply because they think their gouging consumers because of what they perceive as high prices. Littleton targets the casual collector and gift giver, not the serious collector. The serious collector knows where to find the best deals. Littleton makes it convenient for a lot of people to buy coins. My guess is their average sale is not a ton of money. I'm willing to bet not many people went to the poor house buying from Littleton.

The original post has nothing to do with Littleton ripping off anybody. It was a complaint from a poster who failed to read the terms and conditions, and became upset when they weren't what he perceived them to be. Another young, uninformed consumer. And for the record, I do not own, invest, or purchase from Littleton Coins. Jsut presenting an opposing view.

 

No one is trying to "justify" anything. This is about somebody not doing their homework, being then disappointed in what they got, and cryng about it. Nothing relating to the original post was Littleton's fault. It was the failure of the buyer to read the fine print. In this day and age, nobody should be making major purchases without doing a little research.

Here's something to think about (and there is no need to answer, because I can guess what you'd say, and I'm not going to discuss the ethics). If somebody, today, offered you $40 apiece for your average, common date Morgans, whould you jump at the offer, or would you say "No, they only worth $25 each, so only pay me that."?

 

Started collecting 6 months ago. I've. Purchased their cent folders @ $4 a piece from Barnes and Noble. I also purchased someone's collection that included a reconditioned set of 1943 steel cents ( for $4) and a half roll of 2005 Bison nickels (i think I paid $5 but I'm not sure.) I live in NYC so I'm use to being ripped off, so if I was, I didn't notice LOL.

 

I had a common date XF Morgan, highly polished (probably whizzed), that someone wanted to buy from me. They asked me if I'd sell it for "like $40 or $50." I actually sold it to him for melt, and he gave me a few extra dollars. He got a coin he really liked (I explained the problems) and I got to make someone really happy. But hey, I'm not trying to make a profit here, I was hoping to get someone else interested in the hobby.

 

I have a friend that made several purchases from them to the tune of hundreds of dollars. The problem is that most of the coins he purchased are still worth face value ten years or more later. You have to know what you're doing or you'll be robbed along the journey to knowledge. They make the SB Anthony dollar seem like an investment. They made so many millions of these that the treasury is melting them like crazy and my 79 near mint condition are still only worth a buck. If you have the wide rim version you got something, but that's rare.

 

Rhetorical question, and not directed to you. I have a feeling most would say no, but jump at the chance.

 

I have made several purchases to the tune of several hundred dollars from other places. Did I overpay for some coins. Sure. But I knew it going into the deal. I wanted the coin, and was willing to pay a little more for it, because I couldn't find it at a more convenient place. And, I could afford the asking price. I pay $2 each for President dollars at the local flea market. Because I want to complete the set. And I can't get them at the bank in the condition I want for face value. Same with the state quarters, at 75 cents apiece. I have no delusions that they will be worth any more than face value in ten years. But I have better things to do with my time than roll-hunt. And I have a desire to own the complete sets. So I'm willing to pay for that convenience. He gets them from a guy who buys rolls and bags from the mint, for which he pays a small premium. Then he charges me a premium, so he can pay for his spot at the flea market, and make a little money. I happy and he's happy. This is exactly what Littleton does, only on a much larger scale.

They do not tout SBAs as investments. They market the coins. If you perceive them to be investments based on what you read in their advertising, it's not really Littleton's fault. But they are not a wholesaler, they are a retailer. You can't expect to buy anything form them and later turn a profit by reselling. You buy from them to fill holes and complete sets. No more, no less.

What they do is not illegal, nor is it immoral, so put away the torches. The biggest problem is most people

READ THE BIG PRINT,
then skim through the medium sized print,
and completely skip the fine print.

I'm not saying Littleton is the best deal. But for every "horror" story about someone getting ripped off, I'm sure there is story about a customer who is pleased what they bought from them.

 

And what is their overhead? What percentage of coin do they send out that are never paid for or returned? I'm sure approval sales have a high loss rate.

Littleton takes out flyer ads in newspapers and magazines all over the country at costs of tens of thousands of dollars per ad per issue per newspaper. Provident does not do this. Their advertising budget is probably a very tiny fraction of what Littleton's is. Also their sales of these generic coins such as that silver dollar are probably much greater than that of Littleton so Littleton has a lot more advertising expense tied up per coin than Provident does.

Wal-Marts customer base is maybe 250 million people while Littletons is probably under 100K. So even with all the advertising they do, Wal-Marts advertising cost per customer is probably less than Littleton's. There are also economies of scale to consider as well. Wal-mart carries a lot more items and makes a LOT more sales so they can make a smaller profit per item and still end up with a MUCH greater profit.

You are still young and have a lot to learn yet about business and marketing. Littleton is not doing anything wrong, and probably not even unethical. They have a business model that is working for them and has been successful for a long time. They are about the only company in that niche market. If it was easy to operate the way they do, but charge much lower prices, and still make a good profit, more than likely someone would have moved in and cleaned their clock a long time ago. If you really think it can be done, then there is a business opportunity for you, go clean their clock.