There is a coin, there is no country...

How do you feel as a collector when you get a coin from nowhere?
The country consist of ground and people united by common history.
What do you think: does it make sense to collect coins without history?

Examples:
Upper Karabakh? : http://www.polish-coins.com/przedmiot.php?id=54
Order of Malta : http://www.fotosik.pl/pokaz_obrazek/pelny/187y0q09txla0oua.html

Do you know some other examples?

 

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Are they used for legal tender? or just to generate funds for the region? I think it is impossible not to have any history, the history might just be uninteresting. A coin made, looked at, and then melted has a history, only a short one.

 

The question is whether or not they are coins.
A coin has to be issued by a valid governmental entity, usually a country (exceptions would have included the valid issuing authority of the states late in the 18th century, as New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, etc did).
So, at best I would consider these tokens, or medals.
Not coins.

 

Technically the Sovereign Military Hospitallier Order of Saint John of Jerusalum of Rhodes and of Malta does have its own independent territory, even though it's just two buildings. Since 1869 it's headquarters on the Via Condioti in Rome, and another Roman villa owned by it, have had the same extraterritorial status as the US Embassy - considered American soil in the middle of Rome.

It's right to coin its own money was obtained at the time of the crusades. The Order still considers itself to be an internationally recognized sovereign entity. It also owns The fortress Sant'Angelo in Malta. It mints coins, which do not circulate, but it also prints stamps accepted by 45 national post offices.

 

I think it makes sense to collect them whether or not you call them coins or tokens. I have some hard times tokens, civil war tokens, canadian bank tokens, and a "coin" from pre-israel palestine that I don't know offhand whether it qualifies as a coin [government issued] or token. For me, their historical role as money makes them worth owning.

 

Some collectors collect coins from the "dead" nations that were countries for a short time and no longer exist. Tokens as a collectible come under the numismatic sub-heading exunomia. Many people collect them....they are still historic.

Clinker

 

Tom,Nagorno-Karabakh is a country tucked in the Caucasus along with Armenia & Azerbaijan.Both of these 2 countries have been fighting over it since 1988.Nagorno-Karabakh has declared itself to be independent of both countries.

Here's an article; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh .

Aidan.

 

I'm not big on Non-US coins.. I mean I think they are interesting, but I wouldn't pay good money for them like I would US coins...

However, Its all in the eye of the beholder... You or someone else might not like US coins for some reason.... I say, if you like them and you are interested in collecting them, then go for it!!!

 

Just as a side note if you take a walk round Valetta in Malta you will come across a number of the Orders chapter houses, we stumbled upon the Russian Grand Priory, World HQ LOL

De Orc

 

Steve,the buildings of the Knights of Malta in Valletta would now be all government buildings.The Knights of Malta now have their HQ in Rome,just down the road from the Vatican City.

Aidan.

 

No sorry Aidan but they are not goverment buildings, they are still owned and run by the order. I had quite a long conversation with one of the curators at the museam about this.

De Orc

 

Steve,I had thought that the Grand Master's Palace is now where the President of Malta lives,& that the Maltese Parliament meet in an old hall somewhere.Am I right,or am I wrong?

Aidan.

 

And just as it happens here are a couple of pics LOL

De Orc

 

Aidan once again you astound me LOL did I mention the Grand Palace!! no I believe I mentioned a chapter house.

De Orc

Ps here is the addy of the main offices on Malta, a rather large building LOL it is built into the city walls

REPRESENTATION DIPLOMATIQUE DE L'ORDRE SOUVERAIN: MALTE

Chancellerie: St. John’s Cavalier, Ordnance Street, Valletta, VLT 11 Malta

 

Steve,my very good friend former Governor-General Sir Michael Hardie Boys & his wife was over in Malta on a holiday a few years back.It was him who had mentioned in one of his letters about the Grand Master's Palace.Those are very nice photos of the Russian chapter house (which is most strange,as Russia is an Orthodox country,not a Romish one).

Aidan.

 

Bit of a history lesson for you Aiden not all the chapters of the Knights where Catholic,, the German Orders were Protestant as a number of British Knighs were, the order was very much a part of the pre revolution Russian navy (officers obviously) These days it is a Catholic order but still has strong ties to the other chapters.
Yes the old palace is a stunning building, it was there that I had a long chat with one of the curators about the history of the order (they have a very nice museum, lots of guns n armour LOL) Valletta is a wonderful city to spend time in, if you dont mind all the hills

De Orc


I wanted to buy a few coins from the period of the Knights rule in malta but unfortunatly in the one coin shop that was open they were very expensive

 

That's very interesting.The only Maltese coins that I collect are the ones dated from 1972 onwards.I have even got the 4 Pound coins dated 1974 & 1976,which I bought for around NZ$25 each.The mintages of the coins 1 Pound & up are very low in comparison to the mintage figures of some countries.

Aidan.

 

No, I for one do not collect those S.M.O.M. issues. True, they are "legal tender" in the territories of the Order (basically two buildings in Rome, see the previous replies) but in my opinion that is a pseudo-currency. On the other hand, the profits from the sales of these pieces are used for the humanitarian work of the order, so one may just consider buying one a donation for a good cause.

One caveat though: There are similar pieces made in the name of some "Order of Saint John" of the Knights of Malta. Those pieces, issued since 1999 according to my catalog, don't have anything to do with the SMOM.

Interesting, by the way, that the order, located in Italy, uses a grani - tari - scudi currency system while Malta uses the lira (formerly pound) ...

Now Nagorno-Karabakh, well, the Schön catalog lists the 2004 issues as "regular" coins but the previous gold and silver issues as privately made medals. If those aluminum and brass pieces are actually used there, then I would not mind having some ...

Christian

 

Christian,the word 'Lira' is actually a loanword from the Italian language that has been transplanted into the Maltese language.The Maltese currency itself is more commonly known as the Maltese Pound,as the traditional Pound sign is still commonly used.The same thing applies in Cyprus,where the Pound is also known as the Lira (in both the Greek Cypriot & Turkish Cypriot languages),& the traditional Pound sign is used.

Those Order of St. John of Malta medal-coins denominated in Lira (wrongly pluralised as 'Liras') are listed in Krause's 'Unusual World Coins',as are the modern S.M.O.M. medal-coins.

Aidan.

 

The Italian "lira" (and also the French "livre" for example) are derived from Latin "libra" = pound, so yes, to some extent the currency names "lira" and "pound" are interchangeable. In fact, in German we usually call the British pound (sterling) "Pfund" which is our word for anything libra. As for the plural of "lira", well, in Italian it is (or was) "lire", in Turkish it's "lira", and if any country or sort-of-country wants to call its lira coins liras, so be it.

In Malta the English term "pound" was first used (and abbreviated "£M" on the coins). Then, in mid-1983, the name was changed to "lira" (plural "liri", I think) and abbreviated "Lm". Not exactly a new name but rather the same name in a different language ...

Christian