Selling on EBay Tetradrachm Philip II Macedonia 1/5 Silber Horse apollo 323-315 BC

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by NJM Ancients, May 15, 2013.

  1. NJM Ancients

    NJM Ancients New Member


    I really don't like what I'm seeing here, on this coin surfaces. Marked by the arrows those areas are MOLTEN LUMPS of SILVER? TIN/LEAD combination. This coin is on auction on EBay at this moment, bids are low but, I have serious doubts about the MOLTEN LUMPS/BEADS on this coin, the 2 on the obverse are very obvious, where the beaded border cuts off, looks like they DRIPPED in the mold. The BEAD on the Horses ARSE looks like its taking a dump.

    There are many other FLAGS, overheated metal that sank, like the POCK MARKS. A struck coin is forced to distribute the metal almost equally. Im sure he would call this EROSION, I'd don't buy that. Check out the confusing title..." 1/5 silber " ok, 1 part silver? so what are the other 4 parts? He doesn't actually call it " Ancient " but lists it in " Ancients Coins " he does say " 323-315 BC "

    I believe this coin to be a CAST FAKE....the seller has a great reputation but, as we all know, when times are tough, temptation is at it's highest!!! This is the sellers name: leortidas

    His Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tetradrachm...266&pid=100033&prg=1011&rk=3&sd=261139105928&

     

    Attached Files:

  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. tenacious

    tenacious Member

    Not confusing at all if you are familiar with these coins. These small silver coins of Philip II are commonly called a 1/5th silver tetradrachm because of their size not silver content. As for using silber instead of silver, the seller is from Spain so I assume english is a second language.

    I would say that "323-315 BC" qualifies as an ancient without specifically saying "ancient" wouldn't you? And BTW the date is correct. It's a posthumous coin of Philip II, the branch mark is usually indicative of being minted under Kassander.

    As far as being a cast I'm not so sure. The POCK MARKS you say are from "overheated metal that sank". It looks more like corrosion to me. And just to add, if the smaller indentations were from cast bubbles, cast bubbles appear round just like a bubble, and authentic corrosion pits are irregularly shaped. These are irregularly shaped.

    Just because "times are tough" doesn't mean this is a fake. That's just unfounded speculation without any basis in fact.

    The seller, leortidas, is not listed on the FORVM's Notorious Fake Sellers List nor on the CoinForgeryDiscussionList Blacklist or anywhere on that forum.


    One of the worst things I see happening on forums, any forum, is when an honest seller is erroneously accused of selling a fake when it isn't. One accusing forum post on a well traveled forum like this one can unjustifiably hurt an honest seller's reputation and sales. In a hurry to convict I wrongly did that once years ago and I vowed I would never do it again and that I would be absolutely sure in the future.

    Be 100% sure before you accuse someone. Put yourself in the seller's place.

    Personally I think you rushed to judgment. It looks like an authentic corroded coin to me.

    And there's nothing else in the seller's other listings that looks suspicious.


    (I mean nothing personal or offensive against the OP but I had to say something in defense of the seller.)
     
  4. Wise words and a story of your own to back it up.
    I never try to call a coin fake as i have poor eye sight even with glass's.
    Ive always let the buyer right or wrong make his own choice because i think you learn more from your own mistakes.
    That said if you have the facts and know the history of the coin then thats different and the buyer should want your input.
     
  5. NJM Ancients

    NJM Ancients New Member

    Tenacious....sorry you had to go on the defensive of the seller like that. I know I am new to this forum, but, I'm not new to ancient coins. I will not go further with this statement because I want to go direct to the heart of the matter.

    First, the Dripping Bead at the neck, where the beaded border ends. The Lump at the Rear of the horse. I clearly see Small round beads, cast bubbles. If you go to his page, use the Magnifier that Ebay has as a feature, go around the coin. I did and I see things you didn't.

    I will tell you that I was a Jewelers apprentice and he made ancient coins for jewelry. I was able to witness incredible spun casts, the Lost Wax method. I say no more on what features these coins had at times. Features that are exactly the same as this example.

    I did not intend to attack the seller and I did not think other member's would take this so personally. You did not address the 2 very obvious BEADS at the neck of the coin....use the Magnifier on EBay as you mouse over ares of the coin....you WILL also see CAST BUBBLES...look closely. I see them Clearly....
     
  6. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    My own opinion? I wouldn't risk it. There is enough that makes me nervous about this coin. I am not the greatest at telling cast fakes from pics, I would wish to see it in hand. However, there are enough inconsistencies with this piece I would not wish to bid on it just to check it out. Main thing I don't like is the rim mark at 6 o'clock on obverse and the bump behind the horse's rear.

    I am not condemning the coin, but I would not be interested in it.
     
  7. NJM Ancients

    NJM Ancients New Member

    At 6 o'clock and the BEAD to the left of that....is a CLEAR DRIPPING BEAD, in my opinion attached to Apollos NECK. Next to the horses rear, the LUMP, above at approximately 10-11 o'clock above Apollos head...a small BEAD (BUBBLE)....on the Reverse in front of the horses head (eyes) a double LUMP (DARK) mass.....and if you mouse over it with the Magnifier on his EBay page look for "cast bubbles" there are a few....

    I'm of the same opinion Medoraman. I did not bring this to the attention of others here to blatantly attack the seller. BTW, his Greek coins, have the same style of Patina and shading, and, the surface(s) have similar features to make the collector weary. His one or 2 Roman silvers are rather different concerning surface. Have seen this kind thing before,add FAKE coins to auctions along side Authentic ones, again, Im posting for opinions not to condemn the seller. I have been collecting for 20 years Greek & Roman and worked for a major coin house besides working for a jeweler. I have a great source from Spain, that tells me, most of the Greek coins being sold from there are FAKE. In fact he refuses to purchase any for his collection and, he's a seller on EBay also. We discussed this coin last night and are both in agreement.

    Another thing I do when selling pieces of my collection is photograph the FLAN EDGE. Those who understand what I'm saying know how important this is. I always include clear pictures of the Obverse/Reverse/Flan Edge. I will also add, where is the weight? the diameter of the coin? the thickness? in his description....I ALWAYS ADD these important facts of the coin to my auctions. Weight standards & diameter were created for a specific reason.
     
  8. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    Didn't Rudi Smit post he had ancient coin dies offered to him from someone in Spain, and post the coins being sold on Ebay from these fake dies? Ever since that posting I have been somewhat leery of coins on Ebay from Spain anyway, not that it affected my opinion of this coin at all.

    Bottom line? I am buying more and more from traditional sellers nowadays. Might be because I have "moved up" on the types of coins I am buying, might be I am a little more hesitant about trusting stuff from someone I cannot return a coin to at any time if proven to be false.
     
  9. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    I think avoiding all Spanish dealers is throwing the baby out with the bath water. I kept the images Rudi posted in case I should come across any die matches for the fakes, and for the most part I'm wary of any eBay sellers that aren't well-established, reputable dealers. But to avoid everything that comes of of Spain these days seems like overkill.

    As far as the coin in the OP goes, I recall what Doug said: fortunately we don't have to decide whether every coin is fake or genuine. All we have to decide is whether we would personally consider it. I wouldn't touch it.
     
  10. NJM Ancients

    NJM Ancients New Member

    Hi John,

    I did not condemn all of the Spanish dealers...I said " most of the Greek coins " from Spain are deemed as FAKE. These are the words of another dealer on EBay from Spain.

    Those are wise words from Doug....and I'm merely pointing this example out should a member here be on EBay considering it's purcahse.
     
  11. NJM Ancients

    NJM Ancients New Member


    Medoraman.....Yes, Rudi did have an offer from a seller from Spain to buy coin molds or dies. I have been friends with Rudi on another forum and Facebook and he asked me what I thought of the offer.....he has reservations about this offer.
     
  12. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    Quite right. I guess I was just talking to myself, because that's exactly what I did after Rudi's post a few weeks back. I just refused to look at anything coming out of Spain. It was an overreaction though - I've acquired a number of authentic and lovely pieces from one reputable Spanish dealer, and there's no reason to censor him on account of someone else's unethical behavior.
     
  13. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    I don't disagree. I buy from everywhere. I was just saying Rudi's post made me wary, not dismissive. :) I just got a package from China a few days ago, something that would utterly shock many here on CT. Yes, even China has some good sellers. No country should be discounted entirely, just like no country should be unilaterally assumed good.
     
  14. NJM Ancients

    NJM Ancients New Member

    Medoraman :thumb: on your purchase from China.


    19228_204438796362046_86402652_n.jpg

    I have this........... "Warring States 475-421 B.C" Bronze Sword, full rich dark Green patina, minerals included, chipped and ancient bronze showing through. I took it to a local 3 generation private Museum & Dealer....COA is now certifying this sword as Authentic and it's period. I bought it online from China!!! Paid peanuts and its worth $1,500 US or more should it go on auction.
     
  15. NJM Ancients

    NJM Ancients New Member

    As I suspected....the coin on EBay IS a FAKE. I was in contact with the winning bidder and he received the coin. Sure enough he has confirmed it as a FAKE having had it inspected at a local coin shop in his area.

    I new from the beginning, having cast coins as an apprentice jeweler in my past. Not only did I notice the CAST BUBBLES but the style was all wrong.
    Reflecting back to Tenacious comments, I was sure he was wrong on this one but being new here, I did not want to rock the boat. Remember, as a seller I always use the words, Guaranteed Authentic & Ancient For Life. I note ALL, details, diameter, weight, thickness and attribution to the best of my ability. NONE of this important information was included by this seller. Another interesting fact since I discovered this seller and his FAKE coins. I contacted mutual friends on Facebook in a community coin page. Soon after having pointed this coin out, I began receiving friend requests by collectors/sellers from Spain. The end result, they not only supplied me with a compiled list....a long list...LISTA NEGRA of Spanish sellers they had dealt with and were ROBBED by, selling them FAKE, Roman & Greek silver coins. The Irony of all this is the EBay seller is on the Lista Negra, with 3 other alias names and! on Facebook...selling the same coins that were apparently SOLD on EBay.....I say no more. PicMonkey Collage FAKE PHILIP II.jpg


    Heres what a REAL ANCIENT Philip II - 1/5 Stater looks like...no comparison in style............
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page