1935 Walking Liberty error?

Doug,

Sorry I used GDJMSP in my previous post but I just couldn't remember your name at the time!

You actually answered your on question and if you read it over several times, you can then see how it actually happens! However, I will go through the steps of Die Clash progression to get to a Counter-Die Clash and thus, the obtuse details. In this case, I will refer to the Obverse Die as Die #1 and the Reverse Die as Die #2.

Let's say that in the minting process, a planchet does not make it into the collar and Die #1 and Die #2 slam into each other. Let's say that details such as the Eagle on a Morgan Silver Dollar from Die #2 only get Clashed onto Die #1 at this time. Since the details on Die #2 are incuse, when they are impressed into Die #1, they become obtuse details. ((Any coins minted with this Obverse Die will show Clash Marks (such as the Eagle's Wing tips or Leaves in the Wreath) on the Obverse.)) Now, let's say that another planchet does not make it into the collar and the Dies again slam into each other and the obtuse clashed details on Die #1 get clashed back onto Die #2 or a replacement (if the original Die was retired). These details on Die #2 are now incuse the same as the normal details on the Die. When a coin is minted using this Counter Clashed Die (Die #2), the details on the coin will be and can only be Obtuse.

I want to make a point about the case of the type of Counter-Die Clashing above! This Counter-Die Clashing is only detectable and only shows up on a coin, when the Clashed Die (Die #1) is not properly aligned on it's next use with Die #2 or it's replacement. There are quite a few cases where the Eagle's Wings tips or Leaves in the Wreath (on the Reverse of a Morgan Silver Dollar) look doubled (but is not actual Doubled Die doubling) on one side (left or right side) of the coin but is very slight. However, there are other cases where the Eagle or Leaves in the Wreath look significantly doubled and the details extend well into the fields. This happens when the Clashed Die (Die #1) and Die #2 or it's replacement are significantly misaligned upon their next use and the Dies slam into each other because a planchet did not make it into the collar.

I hope the above explanations will clear up any misconception between Die Clashing and Counter-Die Clashing! I will try to get some pictures of coins that I own that have Die Clashing and others that have Counter-Die Clashing and post them here for viewing.


Take care...Frank

 

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Frank,

Thank you for further explaining clashed die vs counter clashed die..looking forward to the photos!

Atlashealth

 

Pictures of Die Clashed Reverse of 1854-P Seated Liberty Half Dime!

The following pictures show the Die Clashing of Miss Liberty including her' staff, Shield and several Stars above her head. I am sorry that the pictures are not totally in focus and not full sized but I am still learning to use my new Digital Camera and had to do a lot of cropping to get the file size down so that they would download to Coin Talk. If you are unable to see the incuse (Die Clashed) details on the Reverse, let me know and I will do some experimenting with my Digital Camera to get some better pictures.

The Counter-Die Clashing on two Morgan Silver Dollars will follow in another post!


Frank

 

Pictures of Counter-Die Clashed Reverses of 1898-O and 1884-CC Morgan Silver Dollars!

The first picture is of the 1898-O Morgan and the second picture is of the 1884-CC Morgan. They both show Counter-Die Clashing (obtuse details) on the Reverse between the Eagle's Wing and the Leaves in the Wreath of the "V" at the lower portion of Miss Liberty's bun and her lower hair.


Frank

 

Boy, I sure don't know why the pictures appear so large...especially on the Seated Liberty Half Dime! They sure were not that way when I cropped and viewed them. I guess that I will have to do some more experimenting with my camera.


Frank

 

Doug,

I do not know how to view "the size percentage" and was using AOL's software to crop the images!

I can't explain why that the only Clashing that you have seen is raised or obtuse! Die Clashing is fairly common on older coins. Sometimes an incuse detail appears to be obtuse when viewing pictures of a coin and vice versa. Also, Counter-Die Clashing is most often mis-labeled as Die Clashing when it is not. Many folks don't know the difference between the two and I believe some folks are afraid to use the term "Counter-Die Clash" out of fear that may be deemed as bad, while others just don't care. If you can tell much from my pictures of the 1854-P Seated Liberty Half Dime, then you can see that the details of Miss Liberty as well as the Stars are incuse and this is true Die Clashing on the coin.

Counter-Die Clashing on Morgan Silver Dollars is much easier to detect because of the size of the coin and that is why I used pictures of a couple of my Morgan Silver Dollars. I have a couple of diimes that have Counter-Die Clashing but it is hard enough to see much less get decent pictures of!


Frank

 

Doug,

I should have noted this last night in my postings but I wasn't feeling too well, was in a hurry and just did not think that it was that significant! However, after re-reading the postings, I realized how important it really is to the discussion.

As I have stated, most Counter-Die Clashing is called Die Clashing by most folks and thus mis-understood. Also, Die Clashing can be ground or polished off of most Dies unless it is too significant or embedded in a design element (details). However, Counter-Die Clashing cannot be ground or polished out without destroying the surface or fields of the coin and possibly some design element. For this latter reason and the fact that the Mints need to obtain a certain quota of struck coins from a specific Die (too meet the expected mintage), they may continue to use a Die with Counter Clashing even after the Counter Clashing is detected or may have to put the Die back into service towards the end of the run.

The above are other reasons why that obtuse Clashing (although is is actually Counter-Die Clashing) on a coin, is more often seen than incuse Clashing.


Frank

P.S. I hope that in our discussions, we have helped clear up the misconception about these two different types of Clashing and helped some newbies to coin collecting, gain a head start in how to determine the difference between these two types of errors. At the same time, I think that we have beat this dead horse enough and can now move on to other exciting things in the coin collecting realm!

Note: I will experiment with trying to get some better pictures of the coins and replace the other ones if possible.

 

Wow all this discussion from one little old walker--keep it going guys, it's fascinating!

 

For other incuse (normal) clash pictures, check these out. They're big, but reasonable for a scanner.

http://www.fish-mail.com/images/coins/1833b1ds7o.jpg
http://www.fish-mail.com/images/coins/1833b1ds7r.jpg

On the obverse, you can see the wreath around Liberty's head and an H at her throat. On the reverse, you can see Liberty's head inside the wreath. Very neat, if I may say so.

Fish

 

Fish,

Although the details of the Wreath and the "H" are hard to see due to the size distortion, I can make them out but am not sure others will be able to see them! Could you size the Obverse down a little which should make the Clashed details much clearer?


Thanks...Frank

 

Not readily just now, but if you use Firefox you can get an extension called Image Zoom that will allow you to zoom in/out. It's a must for looking at coin pics, especially if you spend any time on eBay looking for varieties.

Fish

 

Fish,

I was viewing the coin earlier with AOL's Explorer but was able to view it better using Firefox at work! Thanks!


Frank