1935 Walking Liberty error?

I have a 1935 Walker that appears to have mint errors on it. There is a streak of silver from the rear foot of Liberty to the Motto(In G-d We Trust). When I showed it to my coin club members they thought it was a clashed die obverse...when I submitted it to the forum on errors at coincommunity.com they first thought it was a clashed die, but then decided it was probably a rotated double struck obverse. They also saw a small defect on the reverse between the top of the eagle's beak and the wing tip. Has anyone out there ever seen this kind of error on a Walker. I also contacted Fred Weinberg to get his
opinion on this coin.

PS How do I submit a photo to your forum...if you need to see the coin its on coincommunity.com @ error forum under my screen name ATLASHEALTH...

This is my first ever error find and first time at your forum....Thanks! ATLASHEALTH

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Read this on how to post a photo...
http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=8567

Speedy

 

1935 walker error

Here are obverse and reverse of the 1935 Walker error coin...Please advise! Atlashealth

 

I think it may be a clashed die....as I think if it was double struck it would show more detail other places.
Happened to have 2 WL Halves here so I put them on top of one another like a die would be and looked at what would be near the foot and its the part of the Eagles Wing right below....MER...That does look like the same thing IMHO so I would say that it is a clashed die.
Fred will know for sure---let us know what he has to say please!...

Speedy

 

Thanks, will let you know next week..Fred is away for a few days.. Atlashealth

 

Both areas appear to be obtuse (rising above the fields of the coin) and if so, then they are more than likely Counter-Die Clashes! Die Clashes are incuse (lower than the fields of the coin).


Frank

 

Strangely, I cannot find a matching part of the reverse to the possible clash on the obverse.
Has anyone matched it up?

 

I could be wrong---but that is what it looked like.

Speedy

 

Die clashes are NOT incluse, they are raised. I have never heard of a counter-die clash, could you please explain it to us?

 

Becky,

The pictures that you provided show Counter-Die Clashes on one or more Morgan Silver Dollars and other than Die Cracks, Counter-Die Clashes are fairly common to the Morgan Dollar series and many are considered VAMs and given VAM numbers!

Die Clashes occur when the Obverse and Reverse Dies slam into each other when there is not a coin Planchet for one reason or another in the collar during the minting of coins. Since the details on most Dies are incuse (inward or below the main surface of the Die), this leaves obtuse details (outward or above the main surface of the Die) on the opposite Die. Since these details from the opposite Die are obtuse, when they are transferred to a coin in the minting process, they can only be incuse!

A Counter-Die Clash occurs much differently and has been the subject of many a study on why and how it actually happens. Counter-Die Clashes are the details from one Die which get transferred to an opposite Die through the coin planchets themselves. Some folks call this impact and others call this vibration transferrance. In other words, due to the over use and constant minting of coins with individual Dies, the details from one Die will sometimes transfer through the coin planchets to the opposite Die via impact or vibration. Since these details travel through the planchets via impact or vibration, they end up incuse on the opposite Die and therefore, obtuse on a coin when it is struck. (The coin planchets do not produce the Counter-Die Clash, they are only the conduit for the transfer of the details.) To help you and others to better understand this process, lay a solid 1/4 or 1/2 inch piece of steel upon another piece of solid 1/4 or 1/2 inch piece of steel, place both on a solid object such as an Blacksmith's anvil. Now take a strong punch and fairly heavy, short handled sledge hammer and hammer an indentation into the top piece of steel over a period of about 10 to 15 minutes (might take less). Now when you raise up the top piece of steel and look on the bottom of it, there will more than likely not be any damage or indication of the indentation protruding from the bottom of the top piece of steel. However, if you look at the bottom piece of steel, there will more than likely be a small indentation on it's top although you never touched this specific piece of steel with the punch.

Believe me, I had a hard time learning to tell the difference between the two! Also, much of the time, the surfaces of a coin do not make it any easier. Sometimes, a transferred detail that is actually obtuse, looks as if it is incuse and vice versa!

I hope that I have not confused you or anyone else with my explanation! I am sure that Mike Diamond or other Coin Experts, may be able to explain the above in a much simplier manner.


Frank

 

Thanks to all for your input...Who is Mike Diamond and what is IMHO mean? Atlashealth

 

atlashealth,

Mike Diamond is a fairly reputable expert on errors on coins and posts many responses here to questions about error coins! I think IMHO means "In My Honest Opinion" but don't quote me on it. I am an old fart that just never learned some of the short hand jargan and must type out most of my expressions in long hand!


Frank

 

Dear Frank and forum members,
Fred Weinberg just emailed me and said based on the scans submitted to the forum, this 1935 walker is probably a die clashed coin and NOT double struck.He said it was probably worth about 35-75$$ on ebay.
I'm still confused because the explanation about die clash and counter die clash was so interesting but not
in agreement with what Fred just opinioned. If any one wants to clarify, be my guest...otherwise I will not mind if this forum topic is closed. Atlashealth

 

Howdy
I'm pretty sure the forum topic won't be closed ---and I'm glad to see that Fred agreed with me
The coin shows no indications that it was double struck....check this link for a double stuck coin..
http://www.winsociety.org/auction/auct39rw1.jpg

I don't understand either all of the things Frank posted---Frank is really good on Errors and varieties so I don't doubt him but I'm pretty sure that around collectors this would be considdered a clashed die....maybe around experts it would be a counter die clash!

Speedy

 

Atlashealth,

I still believe that the areas on the coin are Counter-Die Clashes and not Die Clashes and if they are obtuse, then that is the case! No matter because in either case, unless there is significant evidence of either, they add very little value over the value of the coin based on it's condition. The coin appears to be a VG-10 and worth at a maximum of around $7.50 and I really can't see it fetching much more based on the errors. Grant you, I am not an expert like Fred Weinberg but I do not agree with his assessment. Basing the value of a coin and any errors by viewing pictures, is extremely difficult at best and believe his assessment of the coin, may be different, if he had the coin in hand.

Please don't really on Mr. Weinberg's and my opinion alone! I am hoping that Mike Diamond will see these postings and offer his opinions on the value of the coin, if the errors are Die Clashes or Counter-Die Clashes and the difference between the two. I see all too often that a Counter-Die Clash on a coin is stated as being a Die Clash and is stated by Amateur Collectors and Coin Experts alike. It is like Counter-Die Clash is bad, should not be used and since it is highly mis-understood, it's very use will lower the value or fetching price of a coin. Heck, you can barely find any information on these mis-understood errors on the internet and the most found anywhere is on the sites dedicated to Morgan VAMs (www.ashmore.com and www.rjrc.com). I believe that in most cases that major Counter-Die Clashing on a coin, should increase the value much higher than similar Die Clashing on a coin. The reason I believe this, is that Counter-Die Clashing is much more unique in how it is produced, occurs very infrequently and is fairly rare. Die Clashing occurs much more often and probably occurs may times within a given coin series run, making it less rare.


Frank

 

Frank, would you please point me to one article that has the definition of Counter-Die Clashes in it? I have searched Coneca and every other error site I could think of, and have not been able to find any reference to it.

Even from your explanation you will still end up with an incluse mark on the lower die which would produce a raised mark on the coin. It has to be a raised mark. The only way you could end up with an obtuse or indented mark on the coin is to add material, like what occurs with a strike through.

I'm sorry, but I can not wrap my mind around what you are trying to explain......:goofer:

 

Becky,

I cannot find a single explanation of Counter-Die Clashes on the Internet! I did find a reference to
Counter-Die Clashed leaves on a Morgan Silver Dollar in the VAM Update from Ashmore by searching "Counter Die Clashes ashmore.com" on Google but the reference is way down in the VAM Update article and hard to find.

The article did remind me that there is another way that Counter-Die Clashing can occur! This happens when the Obverse and Reverse Dies slam together without a planchet in the collar thus creating a Die Clashes on the Dies, then the Dies again slam together, thus transferring the Clashed details back to it's orginal Die. These details are also obtuse.

I found a decent explanation of Die Clashing on the internet which explains that Die Clash marks are in fact incuse on a coin. Go to the following link and scroll down to the 14th paragraph within the article (sorry but you have to count them unless you have a "Find" function which AOL does not): http://www.harlanjberk.com/departments/articles/details.asp?inventorynumber=13&linenum=13


Frank

 

GDJMSP,

No, a Die Clash is incluse (meaning sunken in or below the surface or fields of the coin). A Counter-Die Clash is obtuse (meaning raised or above the surface or fields of the coin.

Now why would you have to add metal to a coin for a Clashed detail to be incuse?


Frank