second and third strikes

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by lincoln64, Aug 24, 2004.

  1. lincoln64

    lincoln64 New Member

    I have a few Morgan dollars. I have read on the forum, and done some research online, about second and third strikes and the differences in the feathers on the arrows. I am really confused. Although there was a pretty good amount of info on how to tell the difference, I couldn't find much on why the different strikes were used or if there was any value added for second or third strikes. Can anybody fill me in?
     
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  3. CohibaCris

    CohibaCris New Member

    Well, there are two possibilities based on my interpretation of your question, and both of them are deeper levels of the Morgan dollar addiction.

    Variety in the construction of the obverse and reverse designs are called by their designations. 8 tail feathers or parallel arrow feathers are just some of the design changes that were made to the 1878 Morgan dollars. These varieties are interesting and valued slightly more than the more common/greater minted designs.

    Double die strikes, mostly referred to as VAMs, are specific die errors that happened when the hubbing of the working dies. There are many VAMs (I think over 1000 at this point), and each increase the value of a coin to a certain level.

    Most of these are valued by varieties collectors. Thus the value of a particular coin is determined by the market and the purchaser/seller negotiation.

    A coin graded MS-65 with no VAM or variety will outprice an MS-63 with a variety in most cases. My $0.02.
     
  4. lincoln64

    lincoln64 New Member

    I guess I got things screwed up (as usual), sorry. I meant to say "reverse" rather than "strike". So same question, except its Second Reverse and Third Reverse.
     
  5. susanlynn9

    susanlynn9 New Member

    Usually the terms "second reverse" and "third reverse" are used in describing the 1878 Morgan. On the second reverse, the top arrow feather is parallel with the rest of the arrows and the breast is concave (it actually is slightly indented); on the third reverse, the top arrow feather is slanted and stands out from the rest of the arrow feathers and the eagle's breast is convex. Both of these reverses are found in conjunction with 7 tail feathers. Hope this helps.
     
  6. lincoln64

    lincoln64 New Member

    I'm looking at page 192 of the 2005 Red Book. It shows a picture of the feather arrangement on the arrows. I compared the picture to an 1880s, 1882o, and an 1885o that I have. All three have the top feather at the end of arrow raised at an angle. I have a 1921 that has them parralell. Were all of them, for those years, third reverses?
     
  7. CohibaCris

    CohibaCris New Member

    The third reverse was used for all subsequent dies (I think there were one or two exceptions) from 1879 on.
     
  8. lincoln64

    lincoln64 New Member

    I just checked my coins again and I have a 1921 with a second reverse.
    Could that be one of the exceptions? Seems strange that the mint would go back to an old pattern. I looked through a loop and the feathers are parallel.
     
  9. susanlynn9

    susanlynn9 New Member

    I believe the 1921 is one of the exceptions that CohibaCris mentioned. As far as I know, all 1921 Morgans have the parallel arrow.
     
  10. lincoln64

    lincoln64 New Member

    Thanks for clearing up my confusion. Doesn't it seem odd that they would go back to the second reverse for a much later coin?
    Does anybody know what the other exceptions are?
     
  11. National dealer

    National dealer New Member

    The 1921 Morgan was a whole new die. After 17 years of not minting dollars the mint started from scratch. The main years for multiple reverses are 1878, 1879, and 1880. These are the most recognized.
     
  12. lincoln64

    lincoln64 New Member

    Great, thanks so much for clearing all that up.
     
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