ANCIENTS: Tiberius as (ex Kentucky)

Now a challenge: Show other double subtractions leaving something other than 4 or 9. IX is not hard to find but IIX???

 

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I can collect my sixpack now ?

 

I have lots of 4's but nothing else. Interesting thread DS.

 

Hmmm, I guess others will need to answer this. The only other idiosyncrasy I remember offhand are the Byzantine XXXX coins, but they are unusual in the other way.

I bet you someone could find a Consul year or similar in a second century coin, but I would be just speculating.

 

Byzantine and unusual reminds me of this Maurice Tiberius VIII which placed the III above the V. I believe it is still an 8. At that period we don't see subtractives. I'm also saying this is a 3+5 rather than a 6 which was common in some Byzantine eras. I'm sure with digging someone could find a history of Roman numerals. I was taught that all subtractives were modern uses but the 1st century AD certainly had some. Exactly when various practices came and went is not something I have studied.

 

I know it's not quite what you're looking for, but I am reminded of the curious way in which certain Tetrarchic bronzes represent the 9th officina. Normally, the Greek numeral Θ is used to represent 9. But these were a superstitious bunch and they preferred to use ЄΔ (5+4), because Θ was the first letter of Thanatos, the god of death.

 

Question Group Six - Numbers:​

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We all know Roman numerals but the Romans did not always use Roman numerals for every purpose. All five of these coins have in common the same number. That same number is expressed in a different way on each of the five coins.
6-1. What is the number that appears on all five coins?
6-2. What is the purpose of the number on the Provincial Coin? The answer need not be more than two words.
6-3. What is the purpose of the number on coins A and C? There are two acceptable words but this answer only requires one of the two words.
6-4. In twenty words or less: Explain why the number as used on coins A and C was expressed in a different form.
6-5. Place these five coins in chronological order using a string of the five ID letters (e.g. ABCDE).

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That was interesting enough to me that I made it a question on the Quiz I posted but no one took.

 

... seven?

 

Doug i need a Tiberius, what is the size of your coin, if its 27 28mm x 10g. i'll buy the coin on numismall and trade you for the Ex. Kentucky Tiberius...:yes:I like that coin you bought...

 

no

 

1. I believe it's 5, if you take epsilon to mean 5 on A and C.

2. I don't know from provincials, but the one I have of Philip I has a Roman numeral that signifies the year of issue. So 5th year of official provincial issue?

3. Signifies the officina.

4. To differentiate it from V, as V was also a letter that got used in various mint abbreviations?

5. My chronology excludes B - I just can't make out the legend. As for the rest I'll go with: E (COS VII), D (COS VIII), A (Constantine), C (Constantius).

 

A characteristic of these online groups is that many people do not read posts before replying to them. The reason I posted that question from my Quiz page was Ardatirion had just explained question 6-4 (the avoidance of theta) and that theta was the Greek numeral for nine (question 6-1). 6-2 is regnal year which would have been L theta except for the thanatos matter so they wrote out the Greek word ENATOY or 9th. This group has seen many tets of Alexandria with year=L followed by a numeral but this coin might be your first exposure to a nine. I do recall that we have seen other numbers written out (the Hadrian drachms with 10 and 13 in words come to mind) within the last year. 6-3 is workshop or officina. Coin A might be called tricky since they split the two parts of the number DE on either side of the tower and coin C requires you to realize that the mintmark CONS is followed by a workshop number (here theta which is the only number on this coin). The only coins with a number other than 9 are the two denarii.

The earliest coins are the two denarii of Titus both showing TRP 9 but one has VIIII while the other is IX. Coin E has IMP XIIII while D has IMP XV so E is earlier in the same year. If that is not enough for you, coin E has COS VII while D is COS VIII so E was struck in late 79 AD while D was in early 80 AD. I have not memorized the TRP assumption dates for all the emperors but will point out that Sear's old one volume Roman Coins and their Values points out that Titus assumed TRP on July 1 and renewed it each year on that date.

Next is the Alexandrian tetradrachm of Diocletian with his typical tiny letters that are hard to read unless you realize that rather few rulers lasted until year nine and the letter o of this period is regularly more like a dot that a big fat thing. As these go, this coin is pretty clear. As was stated correctly Constantine and Constantius II bring up the rear so the answer is EDBAC. Note that coin C has reverted to the use of theta in the mintmark for the workshop letter. By that time, it was inappropriate to cling to Pagan superstitions in the new Christian era so the fear of Thanatos was old fashioned. Coin A dates from a time when Constantine was still catering to the Pagan part of the populace and still used the ED work-around. Coin C is a generation later and the old Pagan ways were no longer being considered by the very Christian emperors.

The reason I created the Quiz was to see if I could ask fair questions that could not be defeated by search engines. Search engines might lead you to a site that explains the TRP and IMP dating systems but you have to think to realize that the IMP awards were not attached to a year as were TRP and COS offices so they could come mid-year as here.

 

I completely misread the theta on C as epsilon, since the right side is a bit weak. But how do you know that doesn't sum with the gamma in the field to make 12? Were officinas indicated either in exergue or in the fields, but never in both at the same time?

 

If you assemble the complete set from that mint issued at that time, all have the gamma in the field and all have CONS starting the mintmark followed by A, B, gamma, etc. up to IA which is the Greek numeral for 11. At that time they had 11 workshops making these. In other periods and other mints the number of shops varied from one to 15. It was not customary to show the shop in two places but there are a couple exceptions to this (which got pages on my site to explain the code if anyone cares). The only additive was 5+4 which is how they chose to avoid the theta. In that day 13 was not an unlucky number but I recall as a kid staying in a hotel that did not have a 13th floor (the elevator went from 12 to 14).

Numismatists in places like the British Museum have worked out these systems by virtue of having thousands of coins at hand. If you read footnotes in RIC sometimes they will mention how many coins they saw with each shop number. Understanding the meaning of each of the letters in various places on a coin requires looking at many coins and seeing what changed between each of them. Then you can start with questions like why and when. Compare the coin below which has the gamma and the CONS but is workshop 11 (IA) and a star following it which caused RIC to place it one issue later than the theta coin that has no star there (but it does have a large dot in the field that I can't explain - help appreciated here). The other coin has the field dot but is shop A (#1) so it shares an RIC number with the theta (#9) coin but not with the IA* (#11) example. Coins with the large gamma in the field weigh more than the ones with delta or S but less than the ones with A. I do not know or own examples of the complete system of weight reductions. These differences in letters and dots are how Dane Kurth came up with her estimate of 2200 versions of the falling horseman coins. She may have missed a few for all I know.

 

That's very instructive. Thank you Doug!