So one is AT and one is unquestionably NT...hmmm

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They look close, but I think if we had better (less saturated) images of each that there may be a more clear difference.

 

Sometimes PCGS purely blows the call. Top coin PR67, bottom coin Genuine QC. This sort of toning is common on 1961 and 1962 Jeffersons, just the date should have told PCGS that the bottom coin was gradeable. If someone was going to cook a jefferson they wouldnt pick this somewhat common date for toners. The cookers would make 10x the money if they cooked a Jefferson from the 1930's or a war nickel.

 

They both are both AT as far as I'm concerned. But maybe that was the point you were trying to make mumu?

 

I'll say the first one is artificial as I never heard of natural upside-down toning.

 

Maybe...or moreso that Morgans are seemingly instantly accepted no matter what. I dont think the Peace dollar is NT any day of the week. But I am told the Morgan is and that doctors cant make them :\

 

I agree.

 

I dont like the toning on either

 

The Man is correct!!. Toning is just chemical reactions and can be duplicated if the person knows their chemistry and duplicates physically the environment and coin arrangement that gives that type of toning. It is impossible to tell with good treatment , so the better idea is to learn what is commercially acceptable with your favorite TPG, and assume that is usable. IMO

 

That's it in a nut. I'll bet there are even catalysts that can accelerate the reactions.

 

I see what you mean. Those both look like they came out of the oven.

 

Yep... just as I remember it. Purple Micro dot, blotter under a black light. Now if I could only find my old Peter Max poster. :cheers:

 

The TPGs write the music and we want to be at their dance we dance to it, it's as simple as that.

 

I think you've coined a new term Jim.......'commercially acceptable'. No more artificially/natural arguments. Just commercially acceptable or not arguments. Toning is a fact of life. At some point it's going to 'happen'. Who is to say that a coin purposely placed in a sulfur laden envelope is 'natural'? What's the difference between a guy who does this and one who purposely cooks the coin? True, the envelope will take longer to develop toning but the results are the same. It's just that the envelope toning is commercially acceptable.

 

Couldn't have said it myself any better. People often assume that coin doctors are a bunch of sleaze bags operating in the back of a coin shop with a bunsen burner, and a few potatoes. No, they have gotten extremely good, and can fool TPGs pretty well nowadays. As has been said before, toning is a chemical reaction, and can easily be recreated. Are all toned coins AT? Of course not. However, there are a lot of them out there that are good enough to fool anyone connected with the hobby--it is a big industry, and given the lucrative markup for acceptable toned coins, quite lucrative. So, the doctors have gotten really skillful in "accelerating" the toning process artificially--what would have taken a century now can be done in days or hours. In the Orlando area, there are a few well-know coin doctors, who make the rounds of less scrupulous dealers,and do their magic. As a toned coin collector, it makes life really difficult for me, as I want honestly toned coins, and nowadays, if the TPGs can be regularly fooled, it makes it hard to find legitimacy in the toned coin market. I agree that the "market acceptability" of toned coins is set by the TPG, and that is the best that can be done as of right now, unless someone gets more skillful at detection, with digital analysis. By the way, looking at both pictures, I would have called BOTH of those coins AT.

 

Another example of AT and NT:

 

"Back in the Day", toned coins were considered "damaged goods".

Lustrous, mark-free, well-struck coins with brilliant, original surfaces were the goal. They still are for me. :thumb: