1831 Large Cent - what is this type of error? looks more than a cud

Hi, I havent posted here in quite awhile but here goes,

I recently sold a coin.. At first I thought it was just a cud , but it sold so quickly, it got me to looking at it a bit closer... I think I can see some letters on it, it looks like an extra wreath. any help on what kind of error is, how it happens and any opinion on value of the coin would be appreciated. Thanks in advance

 

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Cool!

I'm not an error collector (not intentionally, anyway), but I would love to own that piece. It appears to have been double struck in the reverse (I love the raised "E" and "D" in the wreath). Not sure how it happened without the Obverse being affected. 1831 was a few years before the steam press....very interesting!

I can't wait to hear from someone that actually knows error coins.

 

thanks for the reply yakpoo! the top of the obverse is slightly indented though not very visibly. Double struck makes sense but I am wondering why it didnt cover the 'america' portion as well!

 

the more im looking at it... that IS a C just east of 6oclock , and above the extra wreath is the ED from united... but how come the extra wreath doesnt extend through "america"? ... any idea on an approximate value of this coin? I know its tough to say but id like to hear anyones best guess... the coin has already been sold so it wont change that but im still curious. thanks!

 

There is no cud. And that is the C from CENT just east of 6 o;clock. The ED in the wreath are the ED of UNITED. The coin was first struck off-center and then struck a second time properly centered. The fields of the second strike have flattened most of the details, but have left the ED in the wreath and most of the C of CENT just east of 6 o'clock. It looks like there may also be traces of the first S of states in the field below the EN of CENT, and possibly something in the wreath below E in AMERICA. OK now that I can blow up the picture I can see the S in the field, the T in the N of ENT, part of the A in the T (It is pretty messed up) and most of the second T in the wreath below the E. What he was taking for a cud at 6 o'clock is actually the leaf cluster from below NIT. As for why the extra wreath doesn't extend through AMERICA, it does. Look at the right side of the R in AMERICA, that is the outer leaf of the cluster below ES.

I only see two strikes, I'm not sure why there is apparently nothing on the obverse other than the indentation.

 

What an odd coin.

First thought is double-struck....uncentered the first time, and correctly the 2nd.

But what about the obverse? Like Conder mentioned, you would expect some obverse defect...perhaps there was another planchet in the dies at the time of the first strike?

Curious....

 

Someone I know whos a longtime collector replied to me with this:

I find this coin very intrigueing. I have carefully examined it and have come to the conclusion that it is an N12 variety. I agree that this coin has been double struck on the reverse with something also going on at the top of the obverse. But, there is another problem if this is truly an N12 variety. All N12 and N11 coins were struck using the same obverse with N11 before N12 as this obverse slowly develops a radial crack which starts to break off slowly to eventually yield the various harpooned whale cuds on the N12. Since the N11 starts with a small crack that doesn't form cuds untill the N12 reverse was used, the N11 had to be made first. This appears to be an N12 with NO CRACK!! My guess is that the N12 obverse and reverse were actually used first (with no cracks) but that the reverse die was not properly attached. After this coin went through the press, it did not release and the reverse die fell loose and resulted in the way off center doubling on your coin. The pressure of this mis-strike may have actually caused the radial crack later seen, but that is a guess with no evidence. I would propose that, instead of re-attaching the N12 reverse, the die master used the N11 reverse untill it fell apart. Then the switch went back to the N12 reverse, properly attached. Quite an elaborate story but I think it agrees with the observation of this coin, as well as the known history of the N12 obverse crack die states.

As a unique coin, it is anyone's quess what it is worth. I have spent close to $1,000 for the rarest of the Harpooned whale N12 die states. I am going to send pictures of this coin to John Wright to see if he agrees with me or has another explaination for this coin. He has helped me to confirm (or not) other rare coins I have picked up. Thanks for showing me this coin. I only wish I would have seen it when it was on Ebay.

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P.S. & FYI This coin was immediately sold up for 300. Thinking I should have priced it closer to the 1k mark but its on its way out as I am not one to go back on a deal... Learning a good bit here, thanks everyone for the info

 

I think Leadfoot has the answer. The first off-center strike had another planchet between this coin and the obverse die. This coin would have caused an indentation in both that coin and this one. (The other coin would show a normal obverse with an indent missing on the reverse. This coin would have shown the off-center reverse and an indent on the obverse.) Then when this coin was placed properly between the dies the obverse would be almost normal showing traces of the indent, and the reverse would be as we see it on the OP coin.

That is a nice theory about the N-12, there is just one problem with it. This is not a N-12, it is an early state of N-9 (N-9 and N-12 share the same reverse) The placement of the die crack between stars 3 and 4 confirms this. On N-9 the crack runs from between star points 2 and 3 on star 3 to between star points 5 and 6 on Star 4. On N-12 the crack runs from the tip of point 3 on star 3 to point 5 of Star 4. You may have to blow up the picture of the obv in the OP but the crack between stars 3 and 4 is there as are traces of the continuation of the crack down through stars 3 to 2 to 1.

 

My best guess is that the double stuck portion of the obverse is there, but either it was struck out or just very hard to detect.

Based on the alignment of the first offset reverse strike, the portion of the obverse die which would have made the first strike is the 9 o’clock portion in front of the profile. Basically it would just be a few stars, but may not have included any of Liberty’s profile.

Check from about 12 o’clock to about 3 o’clock on the obverse for any signs of a first strike, which should look like a semi-circle of stars arching into the field towards the top of Liberty’s head.

 

I am not seeing anything unusual on the obverse except excess wear in the northeast (but its much closer to the edge than the wreath position on the reverse)

 

The orientation of the ED to the C in the first strike seems fine to me.

 

shes in the mail! I'm gona give this package a kiss goodbye before I mail it

 

Hope you got a good price for her.

 

sold immediately for 300 ... thinking the value should have been closer to 900 if I had to guess, what do you think?

im happy though, I have learned a lot and hopefully it will make some other people happy too!

 

I think it's worth around $300. It would be worth more if the obverse strike was a brockage, or even if a normal off center obverse strike. But I think the lack of obverse details hurts it a bit.

Check out the Dan Holmes part III sale, it's all large cent error coins with a large variety and number of middle dates:

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/chap_auc.php?site=1&lang=1&sale=60&chapter=2&page=4

 

Thanks a lot for the link beef! I have bookmarked it.

I just received a message through a friend from John Wright (he has corresponded with him before to confirm rarities) :

Below comments by John Wright

Here's my assessment for you to pass back to your eBay friend.
1) First, this is not a "Die Break Cud", but it definitely IS an "Error".
A cud is a chunk broken away from the die and has no design
in the 'cud' area. Compare your picture (first attached picture)
with the second attached picture (a cud).
2) On the reverse of your coin you can clearly see part of an off-center
wreath (bottom right) that has been overlaid with the normal strike.
This planchet was first struck far off-center, either as a normal
strike or as a brockage. I lean toward the latter because even
though there is no design from the first strike on the obverse of
your coin, that area appears to be incuse rather than raised.
3) A personal kick of mine -- these are "CENT"s, not "pennies",
as clearly stated on the coin. Pennies are British coinage
(12 to the shilling) and we established our own NEW coinage
system when we broke away from the Brits in the late 1700's.
The United States has never struck pennies.
4) Harold is right that the N-12 crack is missing, but 1831 varieties
N-9 and N-12 are very similar but for the obverse cracks -- and
they share the same reverse die. I have also attached pictures
of an early and late 1831 N-9. Note the light crack on your coin
from star 3 to the CENTER of star 4, continuing on to the OUTER
point of star 5. The crack on N-12 runs thru the INNER points
of all of stars 1-12. Your coin is an early-state N-9.
5) Harold's speculation of "possible unique" is 100% on target.
All mis-struck coins (commonly called "errors") are one-of-a-
kind items. Even though the same goof may be repeated
many times,, each example is unique from its siblings. Your
coin is indeed an individual item of fascination, as evidenced
by the price it brought.